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Treating the Bay Area as like working in the mines

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Re: Treating the Bay Area as like working in the mines

#51

Post by jiveturkey »

EZ-E wrote: post #29
titzer wrote: post #19

After 5 years there, my conclusion was that the Bay Area runs on human souls. It might not be like the black lung, dirt-faced dangerous mines of old, but if you end up working 10 or 12 hours a day, are caged, distracted, annoyed (but fed!) at work, go home to a meager existence, have zero friends, zero romance, and your mind is hijacked to the point where you literally cannot think about anything else and relax , the…

> It might not be like the black lung, dirt-faced dangerous mines of old, but if you end up working 10 or 12 hours a day, are caged, distracted, annoyed (but fed!) at work, go home to a meager existence, have zero friends, zero romance, and your mind is hijacked to the point where you literally cannot think about anything else and relax, then your soul is being pretty much sucked dry. I would get my soul sucked dry f…

Where, in the entire US, does tech not pay $100k? startups pay more than that here. You don’t need to come to SV to make $100k. Any city will do.

Re: Treating the Bay Area as like working in the mines

#52

Post by ummonk »

code4tee wrote: post #28

Its a harsh but fair analogy. The region has lost its soul. People moving there have little intention of setting down roots and staying long term. People who have lived there long term are just waiting to cash out on their house and move far away and just hoping the local tech ecosystem doesn’t implode first. Employees think they’re playing the companies by taking big pay then getting out and going elsewhere. Compani…

I grew up here, and have always wanted to stay, but the affordability bar for that has been constantly going up. I switched into software engineering in the hope that I could afford to keep up with rising housing prices. I'm just hoping all the people planning to get out do so soon in the next recession. Because god knows the NIMBYs aren't going to allow enough housing for everyone in the meantime.

Re: Treating the Bay Area as like working in the mines

#53

Post by ummonk »

wffurr wrote: post #12
null0pointer wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you can't use your options until they vest right? Maybe I don't understand exactly what you mean

So your first year is tight, but then your stock grants begin vesting and it's basically extra income at that point if you sell immediately.

Large companies are starting to eliminate vesting cliffs, and moving to quarterly refreshers.

Re: Treating the Bay Area as like working in the mines

#54

Post by labcomputer »

null0pointer wrote: post #10
tehlike wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rsus do stack up with refreshers.

But you can't use your options until they vest right? Maybe I don't understand exactly what you mean

RSU comp usually works like this (using made-up round numbers and assuming the share price is flat to keep things easy):

* Day 1: You are granted $100k of RSUs[1] vesting over 4 years

* Day 365: 1/4th of your original RSU grant vests ($25k). Your boss likes you, so you are granted a "refresher" block of $50k of RSUs vesting over 4 years.

* Day 730: 1/4 of your original RSU + 1/4 of your new RSU vests ($25k + $12.5k) = $37.5. You continue to do a good job, so you are granted an additional "refresher" $50k of RSUs.

* Day 1095: 1/4 of each block vests. You have ($25k + $12.5k + $12.5k) = $50k of shares vesting. You get a promotion and are granted $100k more RSUs.

* Day 1460: You have ($25k + $12.5k + $12.5k + $25k) = $75k of shares vesting. You get a refresher of $75k RSUs.

* Day 1825: Notice that your original block of RSUs is now exhausted. You have ($12.5k + $12.5k + $25k + $18.75k) = $68k of shares vesting.

[1] RSU = Restricted Stock Unit, not the same thing as options. RSUs are like stock, except that it's really a promise to give you real shares at specific dates in the future, provided that you meet certain obligations (like continuing to be employed by the granting company).

Re: Treating the Bay Area as like working in the mines

#55

Post by RightMillennial »

jiveturkey wrote: post #51
EZ-E wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It might not be like the black lung, dirt-faced dangerous mines of old, but if you end up working 10 or 12 hours a day, are caged, distracted, annoyed (but fed!) at work, go home to a meager existence, have zero friends, zero romance, and your mind is hijacked to the point where you literally cannot think about anything else and relax, then your soul is being pretty much sucked dry. I would get my soul sucked dry f…

Where, in the entire US, does tech not pay $100k? startups pay more than that here. You don’t need to come to SV to make $100k. Any city will do.

Are you talking entry, low, mid, or high level compensation? Anecdotally, in the Midwest entry level is well below $100k. If you want to make $100k here, you have to be at least mid level and be at a company that values developers. According to "Developer Salaries in 2018: Updating the Stack Overflow Salary Calculator" [1], the median pay is roughly 100k in the prominent Midwest cities.

[1]: https://stackoverflow.blog/2018/09/05/developer-salaries-in-...

Re: Treating the Bay Area as like working in the mines

#56

Post by gbustomtv5 »

smivan wrote: post #17
null0pointer wrote: post #5

At $5,500 per month is that to rent or buy? I currently spend about 25% of my after-tax salary on rent and I consider it too much for me. $66,000 => $264,000 after-tax. Californian marginal income tax bracket for $52k - $268k is 9.3% So $264,000 after-tax => $291,000 pre-tax (I know that's not how tax brackets work but I'm just estimating) And that must be base salary since you can't pay rent or buy food with stock o…

Here are real numbers. Background: Average of 10 programmers who range ages 22-25 and are 2-3 years out of college. Base: 140k Bonus: 30k Equity: ~60k Total: $230k year pretax. Taxes: - 33% federal bracket - 10% state bracket - 7% FICA+Medicaid. (50% total) Brackets listed are marginal rates, actual rates are noted here: https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator#p9c7Y... Let's run the math - $230k comp -…

20% bonus is not what mid engineers get.

60k equity is probaly over 4 years not 1. 60k over 4 years is actually close to average equity comp for 140k comp bracket.

You are off by 50k.

Signon bonuses can bring total comp to 200-210k.

Background: I write eng offers and know comp brackets.

Re: Treating the Bay Area as like working in the mines

#57

Post by pcwalton »

titzer wrote: post #19

After 5 years there, my conclusion was that the Bay Area runs on human souls. It might not be like the black lung, dirt-faced dangerous mines of old, but if you end up working 10 or 12 hours a day, are caged, distracted, annoyed (but fed!) at work, go home to a meager existence, have zero friends, zero romance, and your mind is hijacked to the point where you literally cannot think about anything else and relax , the…

I'm sorry you had a bad experience. But it's not bad for everyone: I really enjoy it here and, honestly, my biggest fear is having to leave someday due to costs, because my quality of life is so high and because I have a lot of friends here.

Re: Treating the Bay Area as like working in the mines

#58

Post by trhway »

titzer wrote: post #19

After 5 years there, my conclusion was that the Bay Area runs on human souls. It might not be like the black lung, dirt-faced dangerous mines of old, but if you end up working 10 or 12 hours a day, are caged, distracted, annoyed (but fed!) at work, go home to a meager existence, have zero friends, zero romance, and your mind is hijacked to the point where you literally cannot think about anything else and relax , the…

>if you end up working 10 or 12 hours a day,

when i walk the dog past the cool&hip startups in the downtown Palo Alto, i always wonder what happened - nobody is working in the evening in these nicely appointed open floor offices designed to foster creativity, collaboration and communication. Those 10-12 hours a day seems to be a myth these days.

>caged, distracted, annoyed (but fed!) at work, go home to a meager existence, have zero friends, zero romance

the Palo Alto, Mountain View, etc. downtowns (and what i gather the Mission and other cool places in SF) are bustling in the evening with young techies socializing and romancing when they are supposed to be crushing their soul in a soul crushing startup. One more SV myth ...

Re: Treating the Bay Area as like working in the mines

#59

Post by vtange »

nostrademons wrote: post #3

I'd say it's more like conventional factory towns from a couple centuries ago. I grew up in the Boston area, and on a recent trip back home, took my wife to see Lowell National Historic Park, birthplace of the industrial revolution in America. It struck me how similar the stories of the young women who went to work in the mills were to the young people who now flock to the Bay Area. Like today's workers, they were fl…

But how does the scale compare between the two? It would seem like tech work lifts much less people up the chain as factory work did. And in less proportion too: A factory in the industrial era could employ thousands at a time from a population of hundreds of thousands whereas now we live in a world of millions and tech comparatively employs a couple hundred.

Re: Treating the Bay Area as like working in the mines

#60

Post by jiveturkey »

RightMillennial wrote: post #55
jiveturkey wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where, in the entire US, does tech not pay $100k? startups pay more than that here. You don’t need to come to SV to make $100k. Any city will do.

Are you talking entry, low, mid, or high level compensation? Anecdotally, in the Midwest entry level is well below $100k. If you want to make $100k here, you have to be at least mid level and be at a company that values developers. According to "Developer Salaries in 2018: Updating the Stack Overflow Salary Calculator" [1], the median pay is roughly 100k in the prominent Midwest cities. [1]: https://stackoverflow.blo…

Thanks for the link. I guess I overestimated starting salaries nationwide by quite a bit! But in my defense, I really meant total comp, not just salary.

I know of 2 SF startups that pay $120k ish for entry level. At entry level, forget about equity, the amount you will get will be worthless. The base is your entire package.

Google will give you a total comp (salary, bonus, RSU) of about $150-$160k for entry level. No senior+ person I know there is making less than $250k total comp. Google designs salaries very well to keep everyone in the same level centered at the same total comp. If you take a high salary, your raises and RSU refreshers will be less, regardless of your performance. Personally I think that's very unfair but hey I don't work at Google so who am I to say.

I was making $125k base (maybe $150k total) as entry level at a mid-peninsula bigco back in 2000. I never dipped under $100k going to smallco and startups since then. As you can imagine, I make a fortune these days but I am very highly specialized.

If indeed startups are paying less than $100k here, I can't imagine how they hire anyone, certainly not anyone good.

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