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If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

theguardian.com

91–100 of 114 posts

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#91
post #85

Isn’t most of soya and corn produced used for feeding cattle to produce meat anyway? Is there some comparison on amount of soya needed if everyone on earth goes vegan vs soya consumed by meat industry?

Soy is pressed for oil. The remaining meal is used almost exclusively for livestock feed. Its not good for much else.

As for corn, it takes 0.8lbs of corn to make 1lb of meat. Its a net gain. The difference comes from grazing of course. And before we talk about "that grazing land could have been used for grain", only 8pct of US grazing land could be converted to cropland.

http://www.beefissuesquarterly.com/beefissuesquarterly.aspx?...

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#93
post #46
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing to note is that being vegan is very difficult and most people aren't going to be vegan. One thing everyone can do is to cut their meat intake. People have meat for almost every meal and it's pretty simple to cut back and you still get some health and environmental benefits.

It's also healthy to cut back on (red) meat consumption. NHS recommends 70g/day. One proper steak means no meat for the rest of the week. https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/meat-nutrition/#how-mu...

Why would you think that is true? Here in the USA we eat less red meat than we did 45 years ago, and are way less healthy. NHS and the USDA make all kinds of boneheaded dietary prescriptions that are terrible (eat lots of grains, eat trans fats, avoid eggs, avoid butter).

Since the 1970s, at least:

* Americans eat less red meat and more white meat than they used to in the 70's.

* Americans get fewer calories total from meat than they used to, yet eat way more plant material (hint: carbs) than ever before. https://imgur.com/a/LgqUMJz

* Americans and Brits are way more overweight than ever before, with the obesity "trend" starting in the late 70s or early 80s. Obesity should concern you, it kills 10 times the people that the US opioid epidemic does (300K deaths/year vs 30K deaths/year), but culture makes it much harder to take 10 times as seriously. Or talk about at all for that matter. What's a minute increase in bowel cancer comparatively?

Why fear (unprocessed) red meat in 2018, and why on earth listen to the NHS on the subject? Are people who listen to NHS guidelines actually healthier than people in the 1970's, who ate more red meat?

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#94
post #67

Not much that I can add to this conversation, but let me share a pet peeve: the phrase "save the world," which is used indiscriminately in so many contexts that's its devoid of meaning. Save the world for whom? The tacit answer seems to be: for humans. Most vegans, including me, are vegan because we find the exploitation of animals morally unjustifiable. Our world includes the nonhuman world. And by being vegan we ar…

It seems that vegans have no problem shifting their consumption of food to a part of the biota that they feel doesn’t have the capacity to understand what is happening to them or to feel or respond to the pain of the process of being harvested for our food. I often wonder how the plant feels when the sharp cow hoof shears a leaf or stalk as it grazes. Does it mourn the loss of the immature seed heads that fall to the…

Worse yet, cropland is almost devoid of any animal life including mice and insects. Its a desert under the corn/soy canopy.

You want diverse biota, you need to talk grasslands. Which feed most cattle in America

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having gone to the medical industry for help with my own extreme bout of depression, I very much don't recommend it. They have very little idea what they're doing when it comes to depression, but being doctors they refuse to admit this and keep applying leeches to balance the humors or whatever the treatment fad of the day is.

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, the flavor of the week as you call it, began to develop out of Stoicism, a school of philosophy that was forming in the early 300s BC. CBT began to be formalized in the 1960s, and it's backed with numerous studies confirming it's efficacy. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2933381/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6000963/

Appeal to antiquity, check. Appeal to authority, check, dubious efficacy studies check.

This is hardly a rebuttal, cbt is bunk.

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#96
post #85

Isn’t most of soya and corn produced used for feeding cattle to produce meat anyway? Is there some comparison on amount of soya needed if everyone on earth goes vegan vs soya consumed by meat industry?

Yes but this article is about grazing livestock, not soya/corn fed livestock.

Then why compare to veganism? The issue then is about sustainable production.

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#97
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but this article is about grazing livestock, not soya/corn fed livestock.

Then why compare to veganism? The issue then is about sustainable production.

Because it's astroturf.

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that vegans have no problem shifting their consumption of food to a part of the biota that they feel doesn’t have the capacity to understand what is happening to them or to feel or respond to the pain of the process of being harvested for our food. I often wonder how the plant feels when the sharp cow hoof shears a leaf or stalk as it grazes. Does it mourn the loss of the immature seed heads that fall to the…

Worse yet, cropland is almost devoid of any animal life including mice and insects. Its a desert under the corn/soy canopy. You want diverse biota, you need to talk grasslands. Which feed most cattle in America

Using grasslands for grazing is one of the prime destructive forces in riparian areas. You end up with less diversity than you began with. Cropland tends to have less diversity because the only animal or insect visitors to it are those that can benefit from the presence of the crop or the presence of some other creature that depends on that crop.

Employing pesticides and herbicides and fungicides erodes the viability of the cropland even further making it necessary for periodic supplementation.

Vegans have a moral issue with consuming anything that they think may be capable of being opposed to their consumption.

From parent:

>Most vegans, including me, are vegan because we find the exploitation of animals morally unjustifiable. Our world includes the nonhuman world. And by being vegan we are saving it.

I guess it's okay to fail to consider that there is a portion of the nonhuman world that might not want to be exploited. Hard to justify that you are saving that portion of it by cultivating it so you can eat it.

I wonder when we'll see the disclaimer in the movie credits that no plants were harmed in the making of the movie.

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#99
post #29

This article reads more like an ad for their farm, which granted as far as farms that produce meat from livestock goes, seems really nice. But their approach is not gonna work at scale, because you cannot have enough farms that operate this way to supply meat to a whole population. They also only compare their approach to what is basically the strip mining approach to crop growth. They don't look at things like crop…

There is no ecologically sound way of getting vegetable calories out of the Montana native grasslands. The best way of feeding people using that land would be raising Bison; cattle are an acceptable second choice. But your basic point still stands. The Montana native grasslands can only support a few cattle per square mile, so it definitely does not work at scale.

There's an interesting UN report from a while back, Livestock's Long Shadow [1], that observes that, nowadays, it's not necessarily even ecologically sound to use the grasslands in the first place. A big feature of their findings are that large-scale grazing tends to prevent forests from forming in wetter climates, and contributes to desertification in more arid ones. Both of those consequences have huge implications if you're worried about climate change.

One of the key goals they set out, aside from getting people to rely less on livestock agriculture in the first place, is to try and convert more of it to CAFOs. Yeah, factory farms are ugly, but they found that it's much more efficient from a land and energy use perspective. As have other disinterested parties. The loudest voices saying otherwise seem to be ones that have a financial interest in selling more grass-fed beef.

A subtext here is that we live in a very different era than the one that the one invoked by more nostalgic approaches to agriculture. Once upon a time, people had no choice but to figure out how to feed themselves off the land they occupied, and nature put much firmer limits on how many people could occupy certain areas. Nowadays, not only is getting food shipped in a realistic option, sometimes it's even the more economical and sustainable one.

1: http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/a0701e/a0701e00.HTM

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#100
post #67

Not much that I can add to this conversation, but let me share a pet peeve: the phrase "save the world," which is used indiscriminately in so many contexts that's its devoid of meaning. Save the world for whom? The tacit answer seems to be: for humans. Most vegans, including me, are vegan because we find the exploitation of animals morally unjustifiable. Our world includes the nonhuman world. And by being vegan we ar…

It seems that vegans have no problem shifting their consumption of food to a part of the biota that they feel doesn’t have the capacity to understand what is happening to them or to feel or respond to the pain of the process of being harvested for our food. I often wonder how the plant feels when the sharp cow hoof shears a leaf or stalk as it grazes. Does it mourn the loss of the immature seed heads that fall to the…

Believe me, I know the plant cognition literature quite well ([0],[1] or [2],[3] for the technical literature) which is why I would consume lab grown meat over free growing plants if it ever came to a head.

However, your mock poetry about plants yearning for freedom is close to being an ad-hominem attack. Are you saying you don't eat plants because you feel their pain? My guess is probably not. Instead, you are trying to deflect attention away from the suffering of those whom we know do feel pain.

[0]: https://www.amazon.com/What-Plant-Knows-Field-Senses/dp/0374... [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Life-Trees-Communicate_Discove... [2]: https://www.amazon.com/Plant-Sensing-Communication-Interspec... [3]: https://www.springer.com/us/book/9783319755953

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