If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer • Hacker News Board

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#71

Post by saosebastiao » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 1:22 PM UTC

cageface wrote: post #36

tdb7893 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing to note is that being vegan is very difficult and most people aren't going to be vegan. One thing everyone can do is to cut their meat intake. People have meat for almost every meal and it's pretty simple to cut back and you still get some health and environmental benefits.

Being vegan is a lot easier than you might think, but you're right that reducing your meat intake and trying to buy more humanely raised meat also helps. What I recommend to my non-vegan friends is to just pick one day a week in which they consume no animal products and then expand from there.

Choosing one day a week to be completely miserable sounds like a much worse path to veganism than cutting back one thing at a time.

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#72

Post by nicbou » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 1:23 PM UTC

Vinnl wrote: post #41

I think the main thing veganism and vegetarianism have done in recent years is win over minds. As opposed to the clichéd vegan that will mention that fact whenever they can, the number of quiet vegetarians and vegans around me has skyrocketed in recent years. Even though they hardly ever discuss it, the fact that more and more people around me, even though still a minority, refuse meat and/or dairy products for thems…

I recently started reducing my meat consumption, and I was surprised by how many people are doing the same without making a big deal out of it. That is the sort of change that sticks.

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#73

Post by hultner » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 1:24 PM UTC

yread wrote: post #46

tdb7893 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing to note is that being vegan is very difficult and most people aren't going to be vegan. One thing everyone can do is to cut their meat intake. People have meat for almost every meal and it's pretty simple to cut back and you still get some health and environmental benefits.

It's also healthy to cut back on (red) meat consumption. NHS recommends 70g/day. One proper steak means no meat for the rest of the week. https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/meat-nutrition/#how-mu...

I've been trying to keep my average under 90g/day since about 2010 and most weeks nowadays I average half that.

However I wouldn't call 500g a proper steak, only time I've seen stakes at that size is as novalty items on menus of burger/grill joints, and even then very rarely.

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#74

Post by rhodysurf » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 1:25 PM UTC

screye wrote: post #16

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #2

probably not a popular opinion but I think the best way to reduce your carbon foot print is not to have children

As humans we have reached a point where if we collectively decided to have fewer kids, whole social fabrics will collapse. Everyone's social security hinges of having just as many people contributing to it today. China had to rid it's one child policy, and Japan is facing a similar problem. How do you support twice as many old people with only half as many working young folk. I'm migration may be the answer, but if t…

I am young (26) but (anecdotally) everyone around me assumes there wont be social security left by the time we get there anyways

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#75

Post by toasterlovin » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 1:29 PM UTC

nicbou wrote: post #69

toasterlovin wrote: post #59

A point that seems to be lost on most people who advocate for a plant based diet is that not all plants have the same environmental impact. Among plants as a class , there is a 60x range in the amount of calories provided per unit of resources required. So it matters a lot which plants you replace meat consumption with. Generally speaking, beans, grains, and plant oils provide a lot of calories per input, whereas lea…

Isn't this premise flawed though? I'd assume that even low-calorie plants are still way ahead of your average cow in terms of environmental impact. You have omitted methane emissions from that calculation, even though their impact is significant. You also ignored that plants produce oxygen instead of consuming it.

I don't think the premise is flawed. If plants have a 60x range in input (as proxied by cost) per calorie provided, then animals can consume plants at the top end of that range and still provide more calories per input than plants at the low end. 60x is a huge range.

With regard to the methane from cows concern: just eat chicken or pork. Chicken is probably the most environmentally friendly meat (in terms of calories provided per input).

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#76

Post by cageface » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 1:33 PM UTC

saosebastiao wrote: post #71

cageface wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being vegan is a lot easier than you might think, but you're right that reducing your meat intake and trying to buy more humanely raised meat also helps. What I recommend to my non-vegan friends is to just pick one day a week in which they consume no animal products and then expand from there.

Choosing one day a week to be completely miserable sounds like a much worse path to veganism than cutting back one thing at a time.

Different approaches work for different people. Personally I just went cold turkey but for a lot of people it's easier to set aside a day to try it. Whatever works for you is fine, of course. A lot of people find that, far from being miserable, they feel better and enjoy the food they're eating.

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#77

Post by saosebastiao » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 1:35 PM UTC

The focus on veganism as an answer to environmental problems is absurd. Yes, beef is a huge problem, and it's not particularly healthy for you anyway. But cutting out eggs, chicken, honey, or dairy isn't going to make anywhere near the same amount of impact, and replacing calories with some plant products (like corn, soy, almonds, lettuce, or avocados) may even be worse for it.

Veganism is not any sort of reasonable answer to any environmental problems. Our environmental problems are a pricing problem...that goes for oil, suburban sprawl, overfarming, overfishing, excessive water usage, etc. Nobody is paying for their externalities, and no amount of voluntary diet restrictions for a race of omnivores will offset that. For example, once you cut out beef, the next best thing you can do for the environment is not to cut out pork or dairy, but to stop driving in a single occupancy vehicle. Proper pricing gives you that information, fundamentalist ideologies do not.

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#78

Post by jversd673 » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 1:40 PM UTC

cageface wrote: post #26

More humane and sustainable forms of animal agriculture would certainly be a step in the right direction from the horrors of the concentrated feeding operations that supply most of the world's meat supply right now. But those techniques were developed for a reason. There's no way to meet the current and rapidly growing demand for meat without completely setting aside the welfare of the animals and the environment. Th…

> well-planned vegan diet

Love the weasel wording

Translation

It means B12 (Yeast has poor bioavailability) Zinc Iron D2 Pills (No such thing as D3 on plant based foods) and a ton of Carbohydrates from grains potatoes legumes rice fruits etc

and people still wonder why the majority of Vegans return back to meat.

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#79

Post by tdb7893 » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 1:50 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #39

tdb7893 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing to note is that being vegan is very difficult and most people aren't going to be vegan. One thing everyone can do is to cut their meat intake. People have meat for almost every meal and it's pretty simple to cut back and you still get some health and environmental benefits.

> People have meat for almost every meal I'm gonna call BS on this unless you provide a citation. Many people (in the west) eat a breakfast (cereal, pancakes, waffles, bagel, toast) or lunch (PB&J sandwich, salad) that contains no meat every day or every workday. Then you have to account for all the meals where there is no meat (pizza, mac and cheese). You'd need to have a substantial fraction of the population eatin…

Yeah it's not every meal but even many of your examples are often eaten with meat. Pancakes often come with bacon, salad often with chicken, and pizza with pepperoni or sausage. "Almost every meal" might be hyperbole but the prevalence of meat in our food and the sheer volume we traditionally consume is staggering. The USDA estimates about 222 pounds of consumption per capita in 2018 but I couldn't get a good figure on how to translate that in to how much people actually eat (I think that is difficult to do accurately)

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#80

Post by Djvacto » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 1:51 PM UTC

saosebastiao wrote: post #71

cageface wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being vegan is a lot easier than you might think, but you're right that reducing your meat intake and trying to buy more humanely raised meat also helps. What I recommend to my non-vegan friends is to just pick one day a week in which they consume no animal products and then expand from there.

Choosing one day a week to be completely miserable sounds like a much worse path to veganism than cutting back one thing at a time.

Also, you don't have to be miserable. There are tons of foods that a lot of people find delicious that aren't meat. You can use substitutes (tvp or lentil/walnuts for tacos, tofu in a stir fry, etc).