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Am I logged in or not? GDPR case study on the example of Chrome browser change

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Re: Am I logged in or not? GDPR case study on the example of Chrome browser change

#211

Post by sp332 »

tedivm wrote: post #150
sp332 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is (or was) the difference between signing in to Gmail in the browser, vs signing in to the browser without sync? (You might feel that this is a tipping point but it's still not a GDPR issue as far as I can tell.)

For one thing they have completely different privacy policies. By signing into the chrome they are automatically forcing people to accept the privacy policy that is far less private than the when people aren't signed in.

Thanks, this is the first comment on the issue that actually made sense to me.

Re: Am I logged in or not? GDPR case study on the example of Chrome browser change

#212

Post by avodonosov »

lrem wrote: post #126

As a Googler with no connection to the Chrome team: I'm pretty sure they made this change in good faith and are shocked people don't like it. Just imagine yourself in their shoes: wouldn't your first instinct be to explain yourself?

I can't imagine myself doing that. It's impossible.

Re: Am I logged in or not? GDPR case study on the example of Chrome browser change

#213

Post by daveFNbuck »

lrem wrote: post #189
fcarraldo wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's true, then the Chrome team is severely insulated from their critics. Chrome's "Sign-In" feature has been on lists of features that privacy advocates have recommended avoiding for years, and watchdogs have consistently raised questions about Chrome's data collection policies and practices. As a Googler, you should encourage your colleagues to read negative and critical coverage of your company and its produc…

I already do. There is a strong internal culture of argument and we do tend to use critical news, forum or blog posts as anecdata points. The higher quality and quantity of external voices on a subject, the better argument can be made one way or another. So please keep them coming, but do remember that usually the best result of those is starting proper research into the topic, which then can show that the best for t…

If there's strong internal argumentation, why is everyone so surprised by and bad at reacting to the criticism?

Re: Am I logged in or not? GDPR case study on the example of Chrome browser change

#214

Post by tedivm »

lrem wrote: post #205
danShumway wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chrome team has been shocked about a lot lately. I give them the benefit of the doubt on their intentions (although I'm less sure about upper management). But regardless of their intentions, they need to get better at thinking ahead. Situations like this are always a little complicated, so I don't want to oversimplify or claim that they should have been psychic. But... it really shouldn't have been hard to tell t…

There is a process where external launches need to be approved by a separate privacy team. If you're certain you can do a better job, you can find some listings on https://careers.google.com/ (just search for privacy).

I don't think that using this incident as a recruitment pitch is a good idea.

Re: Am I logged in or not? GDPR case study on the example of Chrome browser change

#215

Post by richjdsmith »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #131
Analemma_ wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t understand why the Chrome team is picking this hill to die on Because they’re not “dying on a hill” at all, because nobody cares. Nobody outside Hacker News and Twitter infosec people only followed by other Twitter infosec people cares about this. > I really expect this change to push a lot of people away from chrome Care to bet on that? Because I would happily take the opposite side of that bet. I think th…

I would take a small bet. We're the trend-setters in technology. We're the ones who got everyone on Chrome to begin with. Otherwise they'd still be on IE. If all the tech people abandon Chrome, they will start recommending FF or IE again and discourage Chrome use. The impact is slow, but it is significant.

Yep. Technology evangelists tend also to be early adopters. If they all jump ship, the masses will follow. Slowly, but surely.

Re: Am I logged in or not? GDPR case study on the example of Chrome browser change

#216

Post by saurik »

magicalist wrote: post #207
21 wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you forget that in it's time IE was massively innovative. It was IE who added XMLHttpRequest and invented AJAX.

> It was IE who added XMLHttpRequest and invented AJAX ...in 1999. Then IE6 was released in 2001, and then Microsoft scrapped the Internet Explorer team and didn't release another browser for 5 years, leaving us with 90%+ of users stuck on IE6 bugs and non-standard features. That's what the GP is talking about.

... which occurred during/after the anti-trust case against them (which led to Bill Gates stepping down as CEO). If we wanted to be honest with our commentary, you would have to realize that to compare apples to apples, you have to compare Chrome to IE 3-5, not IE 6.

Re: Am I logged in or not? GDPR case study on the example of Chrome browser change

#217

Post by valarauca1 »

manigandham wrote: post #154
mulmen wrote: post #132

Chrome has been the new IE for years. "just use chrome" is an endless refrain from webdevs who don't want to test on Firefox. Not sure why it is so hard for people to see what is going on here. Google has a massive conflict of interest with their web development efforts. This is classic Microsoft-esque Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.

That's a bad example. In technical progress, Chrome is the complete opposite of IE (which seems to be replaced by Safari these days) and way better than the rest in pushing forward new features. Also 99% of the time Firefox and Edge work just fine. EDIT: Yes, IE was great in the beginning, but then it stagnated and earned the wide reputation of being terrible obsolete anchor that it is now known for. It's with this l…

    That's a bad example. In technical progress,
    Chrome is the complete opposite of IE
When IE started to _gain_ internet share it was a paragon of technological development. It was far faster then navigator, more reactive and performant.

Only little-by-little did Microsoft start adding in features no other browser supported. By the time the mid-late 00's roll around and Chrome was released. IE was this red-headed step child, with a lot of unique Microsoft only extensions.

Chrome is walking the same path, a technological superior browser slowly breaking compatibility with the rest of the web. But in such a way that developers _arent too unhappy_, but enough that most business users, and home users keep using it.

Saying Safari is the new IE is a short sited look at only the tail end of the problem from IE7 or so out. When IE was this slow laggy thing people kept around from Windows XP. Instead you need to look at Chrome like somebody would look at IE4 compared to Netscape Navigator. Sure IE4 breaks standards, but custom webfonts, OpenSSL encryption, ActiveX containers! All these new tools developers can use to make a richer more interactive web experience!

Re: Am I logged in or not? GDPR case study on the example of Chrome browser change

#218

Post by [deleted] »

kerng wrote: post #193
SippinLean wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one point of comparison that glosses over Chrome's compliance with standards in stark contrast to IE.

Google is just playing the game (embrace, extend, extinguish) - meaning the outcome they try to achieve is the same.

[deleted]

Re: Am I logged in or not? GDPR case study on the example of Chrome browser change

#219

Post by tedivm »

joshuamorton wrote: post #194
btilly wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is sending my personal passwords to a server under Google's control an increase in my privacy? More importantly, doing so without users clearly knowing and consenting to it is a clear violation of GDPR. This is an absolute, not a relative standard. Which means that it doesn't matter how it compares to what things were like before. This for Google could be up to a $2 billion fine. 2% of worldwide annual revenue -…

>How is sending my personal passwords to a server under Google's control an increase in my privacy? If this change did that, I might be inclined to agree with you. But as far as I know, it doesn't. You still have to explicitly opt in to syncing. Which is a no-op compared to the old behavior.

According to the Privacy Policy (even after the changes from this weekend) this change gives Chrome permission to upload data.

> The personal information that Chrome stores won't be sent to Google unless you choose to store that data in your Google Account by signing in to Chrome.

If what you are saying is true- and will remain true for the future- why didn't they change that language to say something like-

> The personal information that Chrome stores won't be sent to Google unless you choose to store that data in your Google Account by signing in to Chrome and enabling syncing.

Re: Am I logged in or not? GDPR case study on the example of Chrome browser change

#220

Post by bogomipz »

Analemma_ wrote: post #14
tedivm wrote: post #3

I don't understand why the Chrome team is picking this hill to die on- their team (managers and developers) are all over twitter and reddit trying to explain the privacy violations away as if the people upset about this are just not understanding what's going on. I really expect this change to push a lot of people away from Chrome, and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if it started opening up more antitrust possibilit…

> I don’t understand why the Chrome team is picking this hill to die on Because they’re not “dying on a hill” at all, because nobody cares. Nobody outside Hacker News and Twitter infosec people only followed by other Twitter infosec people cares about this. > I really expect this change to push a lot of people away from chrome Care to bet on that? Because I would happily take the opposite side of that bet. I think th…

>"Because they’re not “dying on a hill” at all, because nobody cares."

You are conflating "don't understand" and "don't care." Those are not the same things at all. This conflation seems to be a stable of Big Tech now where matters of privacy are concerned.

>"Nobody outside Hacker News and Twitter infosec people only followed by other Twitter infosec people cares about this."

Awareness of issues and a dialogue concerning them generally starts with people have domain-specific knowledge. The idea that this somehow detracts from an issue's importance is absurd.

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