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Linux – The beginning of the end?

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Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#151

Post by adamrezich »

notacoward wrote: post #149
adamrezich wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a highly revisionist version of events.

OK, so what did I get wrong? Please explain exactly which facts are incorrect, and what the correct version would be. Or is "revisionist" just a content-free dismissal of something other than your personal preferred narrative? Put up your version, and we'll see who the revisionist is.

The main thing is, I've yet to see any evidence that Linus' "abuse" actually hurt anyone in any way. Peoples' reactions ranged from amusement to cringing but I don't think anyone ever took his hyperbolic over-the-top profanity seriously. nobody was actually being hurt, and the Linux kernel developed into an amazing product that's in use everywhere around the world. Anyone who doesn't like the way Linus does things is free to fork the repo and do their own thing, and always has been.

Many people seem to want to paint Linux as having this terrible internal culture because mean ol' Linus was always randomly insulting people for no good reason, and I just haven't seen any proof of that myself. The idea that Linus had to change strikes me as odd--he wasn't hurting anyone, and nobody thought he was, until recently.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#152

Post by steveklabnik »

daxorid wrote: post #143
vesak wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rust, the programming language project, is one of the most inclusive projects there is, and they have a strong CoC. They seem to be doing fine. I don't think this is going to kill Linux. As for Linus's vacation/break/whatever, it's good that they're practicing giving the reins away. It is bound to happen at some future anyway. It's equally good that they're practicing behaving well, because it's quite possible that t…

> Rust, the programming language project, is one of the most inclusive projects there is Right. Let's see Klabnik accept a PR from Curtis Yarvin. The "inclusiveness" of Rust, and projects like it, only applies if you hold the correct opinions. The definition of "inclusive" as viewed by most of these CoCs is extremely narrow.

We do not police people’s political views outside of Rust, and we have a number of people from all over the political spectrum doing work. Including people farther right than Republicans.

Politics discussion is off-topic, and so it’s geneally a non-issue. I don’t discuss my political beliefs, and neither does anyone else.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#153

Post by notacoward »

adamrezich wrote: post #151
notacoward wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so what did I get wrong? Please explain exactly which facts are incorrect, and what the correct version would be. Or is "revisionist" just a content-free dismissal of something other than your personal preferred narrative? Put up your version, and we'll see who the revisionist is.

The main thing is, I've yet to see any evidence that Linus' "abuse" actually hurt anyone in any way. Peoples' reactions ranged from amusement to cringing but I don't think anyone ever took his hyperbolic over-the-top profanity seriously. nobody was actually being hurt, and the Linux kernel developed into an amazing product that's in use everywhere around the world. Anyone who doesn't like the way Linus does things is…

> I've yet to see any evidence that Linus' "abuse" actually hurt anyone in any way.

I have a feeling this will get dragged down into hair-splitting over what "hurt anyone" means, but I've known or known of several people whose careers were negatively affected. Sage Sharp comes immediately to mind. Some of the people who have tried to get security or real-time-scheduling patches in, only to met with a wall of invective, also come to mind. Sure, they probably went on to do their work elsewhere or maintain it as private patches, and were content doing so, but I'd still say that denied them recognition they deserved and also represent missed opportunities for Linux itself. I've personally stayed away from working on the Linux kernel, despite having worked on kernels since before Linux existed and thus knowing both the technical and cultural issues involved, because I just didn't want to be around him or Al Viro or some of the others I'd have to work with to get patches in.

So I have a different perspective than you. How is that "revisionist"? Couldn't that label be applied to your "nothing bad ever happened" version just as easily?

> The idea that Linus had to change strikes me as odd

Whether he had to or not, he felt it was beneficial to do so. Maybe those who idolize him should consider that he might have been right this time too.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#154

Post by vesak »

daxorid wrote: post #143
vesak wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rust, the programming language project, is one of the most inclusive projects there is, and they have a strong CoC. They seem to be doing fine. I don't think this is going to kill Linux. As for Linus's vacation/break/whatever, it's good that they're practicing giving the reins away. It is bound to happen at some future anyway. It's equally good that they're practicing behaving well, because it's quite possible that t…

> Rust, the programming language project, is one of the most inclusive projects there is Right. Let's see Klabnik accept a PR from Curtis Yarvin. The "inclusiveness" of Rust, and projects like it, only applies if you hold the correct opinions. The definition of "inclusive" as viewed by most of these CoCs is extremely narrow.

> The definition of "inclusive" as viewed by most of these CoCs is extremely narrow.

That is, of course, a complete lie.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#155

Post by kaneua »

Certhas wrote: post #117
kaneua wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not in the guys who want to misbehave and hate Code of Conduct because of that. Code of conduct and its vaguely written rules gives certain people a power to abuse. As we know from history, if there is a possibility that power can be abused, it will be.

We know from history that human collaboration, and the building of communities requires norms, compromise and ongoing discussion. Fight the abusers, fight the bullies, but don't pretend that we can't have written down norms of decency because of the potential for abuse. You presumably wouldn't accept blanket "potential for abuse/harm" arguments in other contexts either.

> don't pretend that we can't have written down norms of decency because of the potential for abuse

I don't pretend that we can't have written norms of decency. But I know for sure that it's not the norms written in "Contributor's Covenant". It should be another covenant.

> You presumably wouldn't accept blanket "potential for abuse/harm" arguments in other contexts either.

A couple of month ago I made a teardown[0] of 17 pages long bill that was pushed in Ukraine and had a lot of abuse potential. It was (and is) my main concern. I see it as a major issue of laws, rules, covenants and other legal or semi-legal documents. You may not see it as big issue, but I do. I see this potential abused every single day by corrupt governments of Ukraine and other ex-USSR governments. Vague rulings as in previously mentioned "Contributor's Covenant" are used to prosecute people for stupid reasons and for personal profit by ones who have power.

> Fight the abusers

It's very unlikely that witchhunt victim will return to community. I'd rather have rules better written than someone expelled from the community because someone likes to abuse the power.

[0]https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraina/comments/8te554/как_власть_...

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#156

Post by kaneua »

Certhas wrote: post #127
Sacho wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe they were trying to refute your initial point: > Because behaving like a decent human being is that hard, isn't it? By pointing out that you weren't able to live up to that standard even when trying to champion it. How hard will it be if you're in a heated argument with someone when your work is at stake?

Thanks. I don't know, this is the topic I get most heated about, I successfully lead pretty diverse teams, this definitely wouldn't happen to me in that context. After all discussion message boards like this are also a different context than a professional mailing list (and I strongly believe that context is important and not always appropriately taken into account). Just because something isn't that hard, doesn't me…

> Just because something isn't that hard, doesn't mean we don't slip up sometimes.

Code of Conduct that you are defending doesn't mention it. It allows to state someone guilty right after first "slip up". Now I can take your comments and present them to the pretty diverse teams you successfully lead and you may be expelled from them due to your heated arguments on HN. But I wouldn't do that. I'm just making an example how exploitable Contrubutor Covenant's policies are.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#157

Post by DanBC »

CryptoRetired wrote: post #51
shrikant wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I wonder if the people posting about not contributing any more to Linux will also stop their open source contributions to projects associated with all the organisations on this page: https://www.contributor-covenant.org/adopters

Yep. There’s a half dozen there I used to contribute to... and one I didn’t realize had adopted it. If I ever need to add a feature to one of them I’ll have to fork it. But I think that it needs a “no CoC” license. That list, by the way, is a list of projects run by people who bowed to pressure and didn’t really think it thru or believed the lies pushed by those pushing the CoC. I know this first hand for the project…

> and one I didn’t realize had adopted it.

You can see how you not noticing it is incompatible with your comments about CoCs being the end of the fucking world, right?

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#159

Post by barrow-rider »

benwad wrote: post #94
CryptoRetired wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see the contradiction. Just look at any of the commit threads onva prohect where opposition to the CoC is discussed. They fly in “developers” who claim they don’t feel included and bully the maintainer to accept it, often straight up violating their own code in the process. But then as the original agreement says there is no racism against whites people and no sexism against men.

> But then as the original agreement says there is no racism against whites people and no sexism against men. Where does it say that? Here is the full text of the CoC: https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/1/4/code-of-con...

Thank you for posting that. I wish that link was higher up since I think people need to read the damn CoC before losing their shit.

Like, I don't really love it, but I don't really hate it either, and after reading it I find it hard to see what the LINUX IZ DED ZOMG kerfuffle is about.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#160

Post by xkcdt »

kingofhdds wrote: post #37
rbanffy wrote: post #9

I really, genuinely, don't understand why such a bland code of conduct would be a turn off to anyone. I may not be easy to be around, but I try not to be abrasive while, at the same time, making clear why I think something is the way I think. If you think someone is wrong very often, I believe saying why the person is wrong on every occasion will provide them with actionable information much better than calling them…

Did you really read the text to the end? "Verbal assault" doesn't have a universal meaning, politeness is VERY culture-dependent, and in modern IT everybody is forced to accept US corporate standard which I'm not even sure is universal for the majority of Americans, and often perceived as grossly insincere, and restrictive to the point it's practically abusive by people raised in other cultures.

As a person working for a US giant and not living there, this is relatable. Everyone seemes passive aggressive. It also doesn't help that I've always been more suspicious of polite people since my childhood
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