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Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail?

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Re: Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail?

#501

Post by forapurpose »

brongondwana wrote: post #360
ersiees wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why isn’t it actually possible to just encrypt saved emails on server? So that government does not have access. Couldn’t one use a hash of the password as key for the data for the data and not save that hash to check password but another one. This way (practically), at least if the password is not eavesdropped and saved by the mail provider, it would be much harder to give away emails.

Apart from the "users lose their passwords all the fricking time" problem (seriously, before we implemented https://fastmail.blog/2017/12/06/security-account-recovery/ , lost password was always in the top 3 most common support requests of the week report) Impementing per-message-encryption would turn us into a dumb blob store. The whole point of FastMail is the value add - fast search, ability to deal with a lot of…

Thanks; it's very helpful to know the ins and outs from a practitioner. I am confused by a couple of them:

> if your provider get a subpoena or gets hacked, then a push request will make your device connect with the password, and boom - access granted

If the message is decrypted only on my device, then that wouldn't matter. I'm guessing endpoint decryption is not what you (or maybe the GP) are talking about, but I don't know what you mean.

> we don't let people store master passwords on their devices any more, because they get leaked due to hacked devices, so we require people to create app passwords. This would be in direct opposition to many of the other safety things that are done

What is an "app password"? If it's just a password stored in an app (and then what is a non-app password? one in a text file?), why wouldn't it be as vulnerable to device hacking?

.....

Also, a couple of genuine questions about what's possible:

> Impementing per-message-encryption would turn us into a dumb blob store. The whole point of FastMail is the value add - fast search, ability to deal with a lot of email quickly, etc.

Email messages arrive in the clear, unavoidably; new messages are always vulnerable. Why not do the processing then - spam filtering, build a search index of hash values, etc.? Then permanently (from the server's perspective) encrypt the old, stored messages, and give endpoint/user the only means of decryption.

> users lose their passwords all the fricking time

> we don't let people store master passwords on their devices any more, because they get leaked due to hacked devices

How do the end-to-end secure messaging applications, such as Signal, handle those issues, if anyone knows?

Re: Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail?

#502

Post by gsich »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #428
SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Email seems like more of a free market than most things considering the incredibly low barrier to entry. You can even host your own email server, you can't reasonably do that with a lot of the software that you use every day. Just because a particular provider is good and cheap and has a lot of satisfied customers doesn't make it any less of a free market.

>You can even host your own email server // As long as you don't want deliverability to Gmail or Outlook addresses. Though you can pay for Outlook deliverability it seems. They're very pinickety about allowing mail through from self-hosted or even low-traffic shared hosting IME [albeit limited].

You can self host and deliver to those addresses. Without troubles.

Re: Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail?

#503

Post by vezycash »

infogulch wrote: post #456
simfoo wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for you comment. I agree that the NSA is not _my_ enemy and I am probably not being targeted. However, as more people start thinking like that, those that _are_ targeted (journalists, lawyers, activists etc.) will have less options to hide among users of more privacy-aware service providers. In a way, by using these providers you shield those who need their services the most

This strikes me as a kind of herd-immunity argument but for privacy.

People won't speak the truth or do the right thing if the environment makes it hard, or risky to do so.

>I am probably not being targeted. However, as more people start thinking like that, those that _are_ targeted (journalists, lawyers, activists etc.) will have less options to hide among users of more privacy-aware service providers.

If only child porn / drug peddlers, journalists, lawyers... use tor and other privacy tools at minimum, 3 things WILL happen.

1. Tor, fastmail, ipfs, pgp, full disk encryption... WILL become illegal

2. Anyone using encryption / privacy tools will be raided. Arrest first, find crime later

3. Authorities imprisoning lawyers, journalists... who reveal wrong doings will be too easy. "He used privacy tools" would be enough to pacify the public after-all, "Only criminals have something to hide."

Consequently:

We'll lose the right to keep pins/passwords. Because refusal - privacy = admission of guilt.

I'm a teacher and I know how difficult it is for a kid to speak the truth when the entire class is lying. Adults are not much different.

If people have to choose between their freedom, means of livelihood and doing the right thing, telling the truth or exposing wrong things by the government most wont.

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" -Upton Beall Sinclair, Jr.

Re: Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail?

#505

Post by charmides »

ggm wrote: post #252
charmides wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Email is a highly competitive market with a low barrier to entry and thousands of companies offering similar services. It is nothing like hardware, so your comparison is bizarre. By the way, I was asking for the point of view of an expert. If you are not an expert on email services, then I have no interest in hearing you speak condescendingly to me.

Once you add the words like Gmail or replace Gmail or instead of Gmail then no, it's not thousands of companies offering similar services. Running a service in Port 457 is the least of the offerings. It has to have spam detection as good as Postini, sieve, IMAP, utf-8 support, tls certificate management, a web portal, DNS and related domain management. The killer is five nines availability. That's pricey. I used to r…

Thank you for the insight.

Re: Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail?

#506

Post by splintercell »

bad_user wrote: post #464
ryukafalz wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Organizations like EFF have been historically anti-government, but very pro corporate and private companies. I don't think I'd call EFF either anti-government or pro-corporate. Rather, they have a set of positions around surveillance, the public domain, etc. and side with or against governments or private companies based on those positions. I donate to them, and in my experience they've been pretty consistent on the…

I don't want to attack EFF, I think they are on the right side, but it's just a general feeling I've got. For example when the Facebook and Cambridge Analytica scandal broke loose, that was the perfect opportunity for them to go out against private surveillance, guns blazing. Their reaction was late and with an article like " here's how to protect against Facebook tracking ", advising people to opt out in their Setti…

> For example when the Facebook and Cambridge Analytica scandal broke loose, that was the perfect opportunity for them to go out against private surveillance, guns blazing.

This is a very American thing which I can imagine our European counterparts not like, that is govt (USG) is treated as an enemy because it is the most powerful entity in the world. For Europeans, it would Govt AND these mega corporations (because the European govts do not have as much power as the US govt).

This is why in the US, corporations are ignored because they are insignificant on the US soil. And this isn't even a new thing, this opposition of the govt is as old as the founding of the nation.

This is why ACLU will not speak out against censorship of right wing media on Facebook and other companies. Keep in mind ACLU would not have any problem defending the latter against the govt, so it isn't about what the latter represents. It's simply, ACLU is a first amendment right based organization and their focus is preventing govt encroaching on our civil liberties (which is defined by what govt can't do, and not what a person is allowed to do in any circumstances).

Similarly NRA wouldn't care if you got kicked out of a movie theater for being concealed carry, but if a local city tries to ban guns in movie theaters, then NRA would step in.

Re: Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail?

#507

Post by eldridgea »

jsmeaton wrote: post #219
simfoo wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing to keep in mind about Fastmail is that all their servers are hosted in the US and they have no plan about changing this (I asked). Post-Snowden this means you can be quite sure that all mails will end up being analysed by the US authorities

I dont think this is true. I don’t believe there is any evidence that the US government is analysing all emails hosted by all US companies. Rather, if the US government asks for a particular individuals emails the provider must grant the request provided there is a valid (possibly secret) warrant.

The US government doesn't need a warrant for emails older than 180 days that are still on the server.

Emails older than that are considered abandoned[0] and treated the same as an abandoned storage unit, due to an old law from the time when email was regularly downloaded and purged from the server by local email clients.

[0] https://www.businessinsider.com/when-can-the-government-read...

Re: Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail?

#508

Post by maltalex »

doon123 wrote: post #422
maltalex wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zoho is great for two more reasons: 1. Their free offering comes with support for custom domains, which is pretty unique. 2. There's Zoho.com and Zoho.eu. You can open your account on Zoho.eu if you prefer having your email hosted in the EU.

Hi, you clearly seem to be affiliated with Zoho... Here is your comment from 6 days ago .. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18008334

Does everyone who mentions iPhones work for Apple?

I'm not affiliated with Zoho in any way except being a customer. Yes, the topic of email hosting comes up from time to time and I mention the host I use.

Re: Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail?

#509

Post by yabatopia »

InternetOfStuff wrote: post #210
fvargas wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fastmail has worked well for me with custom domains. It's nice being able to create custom aliases for when an address is publicly visible e.g. GitHub so I know through what funnel emails are coming from. Like others have said, the Android app is not worth installing unless you're okay with limited and, in some cases, poor functionality. I suppose you can set it up with the Gmail or Outlook Android apps? I've never t…

> Still searching for a good Android mail app... Give AquaMail a try. I find it efficient, fast and featureful. I've never noticed any bugs. The user interface is perhaps not fancy, but IMO not ugly either, and certainly functional. I've been using it for years, and they keep updating it diligently.

I've been using Aquamail on my tablet for years, it's a nice mail app and they continue to support is. I use it on my tablet for the swipe feature especially.

On my smartphone I'm using MailDroid Pro. Like Aquamail, I'm using it for several years now, steady updates and good support. The reason I use MailDroid on my smartphone is the anti-spam plug-in (they charge extra for that though).

Re: Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail?

#510

Post by ryandrake »

rjzzleep wrote: post #188

For the self-hosted folks there are: https://mailcow.email/ - dockerized, works with multiple domains, sogo for groupware. Compared to mailinabox's single disk, it has 6 docker volumes to keep track of. https://mailu.io/ - dockerized, it has a section on kubernetes deployments, which i find weird, but I guess could make sense for companies https://mailinabox.email/ - no docker, no multiple domains, roundcube, nextclo…

This might be obvious and not need to be mentioned, but if you're self-hosting, don't forget the obvious and often most flexible option: A Linux box directly running plain old Exim (or Postfix, etc.), Dovecot (or Courier, etc.), Spamassassin. No containers, no abstractions, no meta-configuration.

I've had this setup for a couple of years now and it's not failed me. Support TLS, SPF, spam checking, DKIM, can support multiple domains and aliases. Basically anything you can imagine. And, despite the FUD you might hear about not using a cloud service, my mails don't get magically lost into people's spam filters. The initial configuration/learning is steep, but I pretty much never have to touch it once it was working.

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