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Show HN: A new protocol for packet radio including ECDSA and compression

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Re: Show HN: A new protocol for packet radio including ECDSA and compression

#11

Post by VMG »

rtkwe wrote: post #9
Cyph0n wrote: post #2

Cool project! I have always been interested in the amateur radio scene. So encrypting amateur radio comms is illegal in the US? Is there a particular reason for this?

The amateur public radio bands are supposed to be open and useful to everyone so the broadcasts in those spectra are supposed to be readable by everyone as part of the accessible part. On top of that encrypted transmissions would be basically noise pumped into the system making the open uses more difficult and harder to police.

what about steganography?

Re: Show HN: A new protocol for packet radio including ECDSA and compression

#12

Post by jimktrains2 »

rtkwe wrote: post #9
Cyph0n wrote: post #2

Cool project! I have always been interested in the amateur radio scene. So encrypting amateur radio comms is illegal in the US? Is there a particular reason for this?

The amateur public radio bands are supposed to be open and useful to everyone so the broadcasts in those spectra are supposed to be readable by everyone as part of the accessible part. On top of that encrypted transmissions would be basically noise pumped into the system making the open uses more difficult and harder to police.

> The amateur public radio bands are supposed to be open and useful to everyone so the broadcasts in those spectra are supposed to be readable by everyone as part of the accessible part.

Except that proprietary voice codices are allowed :(

Re: Show HN: A new protocol for packet radio including ECDSA and compression

#13

Post by brians »

emptybits wrote: post #7
Cyph0n wrote: post #2

Cool project! I have always been interested in the amateur radio scene. So encrypting amateur radio comms is illegal in the US? Is there a particular reason for this?

It's also illegal in Canada. With amateur radio "dying" as an interesting hobby (my opinion, but widely held) it is often speculated that if encryption was permitted in amateur radio communications, there would be quite a resurgence in interest. I predict a new generation would start to pick up the hobby and find untold uses (and abuses) for it.

There are more hams in the US, and more active hams, than ever before. That's a funny sort of dying!

Joe Taylor's work on below-the-noise signal extraction has revitalized shortwave: https://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/k1jt/wsjtx.html , particularly at the nadir of the sunspot cycle. That's a funny sort of dying!

Amateur satellites are accessible for $100 in parts: https://www.n2yo.com/satellites/?c=18 ; with the same parts and some practice and luck you can talk to the space station. That's cool for anyone but especially cool for students; NASA will do more amateur radio work in 2018 than in any previous year. That's a funny sort of dying!

If encryption were permitted on amateur bands, I'd expect to see commercialization right quick—along the same lines as the PACTOR modems embraced by the long-duration recreational sailing community: https://www.cruisingworld.com/staying-connected-at-sea

Re: Show HN: A new protocol for packet radio including ECDSA and compression

#14

Post by [deleted] »

VMG wrote: post #11
rtkwe wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amateur public radio bands are supposed to be open and useful to everyone so the broadcasts in those spectra are supposed to be readable by everyone as part of the accessible part. On top of that encrypted transmissions would be basically noise pumped into the system making the open uses more difficult and harder to police.

what about steganography?

[deleted]

Re: Show HN: A new protocol for packet radio including ECDSA and compression

#15

Post by TrueDuality »

jimktrains2 wrote: post #12
rtkwe wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amateur public radio bands are supposed to be open and useful to everyone so the broadcasts in those spectra are supposed to be readable by everyone as part of the accessible part. On top of that encrypted transmissions would be basically noise pumped into the system making the open uses more difficult and harder to police.

> The amateur public radio bands are supposed to be open and useful to everyone so the broadcasts in those spectra are supposed to be readable by everyone as part of the accessible part. Except that proprietary voice codices are allowed :(

To a certain extent yes. This is only true on frequencies allowing digital voice encoding and they technically are still required to publish the working of the codec and how to identify them even if they are patent encumbered and you can't legally resell or distribute something to decode them.

These protections are to ensure the FCC / government are always able to decode amateur transmissions. These aren't protections for the operators themselves.

I completely agree with your sentiments though, the amateur bands should not allow proprietary commercialization.

Re: Show HN: A new protocol for packet radio including ECDSA and compression

#16

Post by prolikewh0a »

brians wrote: post #13
emptybits wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also illegal in Canada. With amateur radio "dying" as an interesting hobby (my opinion, but widely held) it is often speculated that if encryption was permitted in amateur radio communications, there would be quite a resurgence in interest. I predict a new generation would start to pick up the hobby and find untold uses (and abuses) for it.

There are more hams in the US, and more active hams, than ever before. That's a funny sort of dying! Joe Taylor's work on below-the-noise signal extraction has revitalized shortwave: https://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/k1jt/wsjtx.html , particularly at the nadir of the sunspot cycle. That's a funny sort of dying! Amateur satellites are accessible for $100 in parts: https://www.n2yo.com/satellites/?c=18 ; with the sa…

I've actually seen my young amateur radio communities die off during this new solar minimum, and a lot of my friends sold their expensive equipment. You really need money and space right now unless you want to sit at your desk and do some of the new low SNR "can talk to the mars rover with a wet sock as an antenna" modes that a lot of people don't like because it's too easy and poses no challenge. There's also VHF/UHF, but that's mostly older clique's.

It's definitely a slowly dying hobby.

Re: Show HN: A new protocol for packet radio including ECDSA and compression

#17

Post by rtkwe »

jimktrains2 wrote: post #12
rtkwe wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amateur public radio bands are supposed to be open and useful to everyone so the broadcasts in those spectra are supposed to be readable by everyone as part of the accessible part. On top of that encrypted transmissions would be basically noise pumped into the system making the open uses more difficult and harder to police.

> The amateur public radio bands are supposed to be open and useful to everyone so the broadcasts in those spectra are supposed to be readable by everyone as part of the accessible part. Except that proprietary voice codices are allowed :(

Yeah it's a bit of a compromise there it looks like. At the time the only reasonable codecs that existed were proprietary and allowing them with the stipulation that the patents be available on a 'reasonable and non-discriminatory' basis so anyone could make a commercial radio based on the codecs.

At least with a proprietary codec with that patent restriction anyone can still go out and buy a compatible radio and jump right on. And if the improvement to capabilities is large enough the trade off is worth it. It's not ideal but it's much better than allowing encryption where the transmissions aren't accessible to anyone by design.

Re: Show HN: A new protocol for packet radio including ECDSA and compression

#18

Post by giancarlostoro »

rtkwe wrote: post #17
jimktrains2 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The amateur public radio bands are supposed to be open and useful to everyone so the broadcasts in those spectra are supposed to be readable by everyone as part of the accessible part. Except that proprietary voice codices are allowed :(

Yeah it's a bit of a compromise there it looks like. At the time the only reasonable codecs that existed were proprietary and allowing them with the stipulation that the patents be available on a 'reasonable and non-discriminatory' basis so anyone could make a commercial radio based on the codecs. At least with a proprietary codec with that patent restriction anyone can still go out and buy a compatible radio and jum…

Been wondering why some of the radios cost way too much and now I am left wondering how much cheaper they would be if those patented codecs were banned or forced to be open for implementation.

Re: Show HN: A new protocol for packet radio including ECDSA and compression

#19

Post by trothamel »

brians wrote: post #13
emptybits wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also illegal in Canada. With amateur radio "dying" as an interesting hobby (my opinion, but widely held) it is often speculated that if encryption was permitted in amateur radio communications, there would be quite a resurgence in interest. I predict a new generation would start to pick up the hobby and find untold uses (and abuses) for it.

There are more hams in the US, and more active hams, than ever before. That's a funny sort of dying! Joe Taylor's work on below-the-noise signal extraction has revitalized shortwave: https://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/k1jt/wsjtx.html , particularly at the nadir of the sunspot cycle. That's a funny sort of dying! Amateur satellites are accessible for $100 in parts: https://www.n2yo.com/satellites/?c=18 ; with the sa…

Is there a good description of what those $100 in parts for satellite work are? Or better yet, something purchasable that's likely to work? I've been wanting to get into it, but I've never found a really accessible guide to getting started in satellite communication.

Re: Show HN: A new protocol for packet radio including ECDSA and compression

#20

Post by justtopost »

VMG wrote: post #11
rtkwe wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amateur public radio bands are supposed to be open and useful to everyone so the broadcasts in those spectra are supposed to be readable by everyone as part of the accessible part. On top of that encrypted transmissions would be basically noise pumped into the system making the open uses more difficult and harder to police.

what about steganography?

While I have heard of its use, it seems making a convincing 'carrier' may be more difficult than it seems with the limited bandwidth, and monitoring. But I may be wrong. In relation to the law it seems to violate the 'open public use' provision, but I am ignorant of the fine print. I do know the fcc is unreasonably good at finding and prosecuting illegal transmissions, but will stop short of incriminating myself or others.
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