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The Economies With the Most and Least Efficient Health Care

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Re: The Economies With the Most and Least Efficient Health Care

#41

Post by HarryHirsch »

triviatise wrote: post #14

life expectancy is a bad measure of healthcare effectiveness 1) infant mortality heavily impacts life expectancy. The us has a few subpopulations that have very high infant mortality regardless of socioeconomic status. 2) The us has a high teen murder rate 3) The US has very high levels of obesity 4) There is a tremendous genetic component to life expectancy. Some sub populations (asians) have very high life expectan…

Points 1 - 3 are all public health issues. When you talk about healthcare you can't neglect that part.

By the way, physicians will say the proper measure for healthcare efficiency is disability-adjusted life years. The point is not to be alive but to live well. Getting shot in adolescence is a public health problem. Hanging around for 10 more years with full-strength Alzheimers is no advance.

Re: The Economies With the Most and Least Efficient Health Care

#42

Post by jlavine »

terrywilcox wrote: post #25
triviatise wrote: post #14

life expectancy is a bad measure of healthcare effectiveness 1) infant mortality heavily impacts life expectancy. The us has a few subpopulations that have very high infant mortality regardless of socioeconomic status. 2) The us has a high teen murder rate 3) The US has very high levels of obesity 4) There is a tremendous genetic component to life expectancy. Some sub populations (asians) have very high life expectan…

So if you simply eliminate some of America's health care problems, America is like other nations? That's convenient.

The above commenter mentioned demographic and lifestyle discrepancies not adequately accounted for in this comparison of outcomes among countries... not health care problems, as you're implying.

Re: The Economies With the Most and Least Efficient Health Care

#43

Post by georgeecollins »

bitxbit wrote: post #34

You look at the list of most efficient health care systems across the globe and they are not nearly as large as the US. They are typically small and homogeneous. I like the concept of single payor in the US but I do see big hurdles even if we get through the politics which is a big if. I'd point to heterogeneous population and a very wide range of care quality across the country and sometimes even within MSAs.

China is number twenty and climbing. People in China could say it is not fair to compare health care in China to the US because the China is four times as big, but I have never heard that.

Re: The Economies With the Most and Least Efficient Health Care

#44

Post by rectang »

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #39
rectang wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, we make services used by the poor inconvenient and ineffective in order to (ahem) motivate people to not be poor. Lousy results are to be expected for that segment of the population.

That strikes me as an overly simplistic view, largely because it implies a unity of motivation across the various persons involved in U.S. healthcare policy-making and delivery. If you're sure of your statement, it would be helpful to cite some supporting evidence.

The best example is work requirements for Medicaid as implemented by some states (Kentucky for one), which end up making it difficult to stay eligible for Medicaid.

Re: The Economies With the Most and Least Efficient Health Care

#45

Post by endymi0n »

rectang wrote: post #33
nabla9 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bloomberg analysis gives one point of view. OECD has published data where you can compares 5-year survival rates after major cancers, heart attack 30-day survival after hospitalization, stroke, ischemic stroke etc. They also keep track of infant mortality, maternal mortality etc. http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=HEALTH_STAT# Data shows that Japan, South Korea, Israel and Nordics are have the best healthca…

In the US, we make services used by the poor inconvenient and ineffective in order to (ahem) motivate people to not be poor. Lousy results are to be expected for that segment of the population.

Motivate? Most definitely yes. Equip? Not at all. The American Dream (especially that pesky part about "opportunity") died long ago. If you're born with a chronic condition such as diabetes or your parents can't afford an education giving you the chance of a decently paying job, better go die.

That being said, just looking at the raw numbers I'd dare to say that health care in the US is just about as inconvenient and ineffective for rich people as it is for poor...

Re: The Economies With the Most and Least Efficient Health Care

#46

Post by blattimwind »

endymi0n wrote: post #45
rectang wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, we make services used by the poor inconvenient and ineffective in order to (ahem) motivate people to not be poor. Lousy results are to be expected for that segment of the population.

Motivate? Most definitely yes. Equip? Not at all. The American Dream (especially that pesky part about "opportunity") died long ago. If you're born with a chronic condition such as diabetes or your parents can't afford an education giving you the chance of a decently paying job, better go die. That being said, just looking at the raw numbers I'd dare to say that health care in the US is just about as inconvenient and…

The American Dream reduced to eugenics steered by capitalistic market fitness?

Re: The Economies With the Most and Least Efficient Health Care

#47

Post by maxxxxx »

TomMarius wrote: post #11
En_gr_Student wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, if you can pay, you pay more for the same or poorer care. You don't get the best anymore. It is shown elsewhere, not in this article. Obamacare killed the US as a medical mega-power. Economics 101: if you force the same prices for a much larger demand, then either the product sells out, or the service is watered down.

It still costs less than my European healthcare tax, and the standard is still higher. It's cheap only for people with the lowest income.

The US system is only "cheap" if you don't have any major medical issues. Once you get sick there is a good chance that copays, out of network bills and other charges will bankrupt you.

Re: The Economies With the Most and Least Efficient Health Care

#48

Post by rectang »

maxxxxx wrote: post #40
rectang wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I think there's something to your point here, I wish for the sake of avoiding flamewars per the HN guidelines you could put it in less partisan terms. (For example by avoiding naming specific political parties.) I would have liked to see more experimentation on price transparency.

Totally agree about price transparency. Everybody but the people in the medical system who benefit from opaque pricing should be able to agree with this. I don't think my comment was partisan but it was a description of the last 10 years. Republicans voted to repeal Obamacare several times a year but never introduced anything for improving it. And now that they are in power they seem have no idea how to proceed. I am…

If we avoid finger-pointing it is easier to find common ground.

I like the concept of the ACA as integrating markets and competition, as opposed to price fixing. Healthcare is a terrible example of market failure which requires some amount of regulation -- I wish we could iterate on which regulations were worthwhile. Instead we have this all-or-none regulation-vs-no-regulation. :(

Re: The Economies With the Most and Least Efficient Health Care

#49

Post by moccachino »

nabla9 wrote: post #30
Fernicia wrote: post #4

The methodology here is not good. All they're doing is comparing average health care cost vs life expectancy. They don't measure standard of care, accessibility of treatment, etc. This is especially important when looking at end-of-life care, which I speculate affects these both of these metrics the most. A hospice with private rooms, friendly staff, and social engagement will score lower than a hospital that keeps s…

Bloomberg analysis gives one point of view. OECD has published data where you can compares 5-year survival rates after major cancers, heart attack 30-day survival after hospitalization, stroke, ischemic stroke etc. They also keep track of infant mortality, maternal mortality etc. http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=HEALTH_STAT# Data shows that Japan, South Korea, Israel and Nordics are have the best healthca…

At least 100 boys in the US are killed every year by circumcision

Re: The Economies With the Most and Least Efficient Health Care

#50

Post by carlmr »

endymi0n wrote: post #45
rectang wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, we make services used by the poor inconvenient and ineffective in order to (ahem) motivate people to not be poor. Lousy results are to be expected for that segment of the population.

Motivate? Most definitely yes. Equip? Not at all. The American Dream (especially that pesky part about "opportunity") died long ago. If you're born with a chronic condition such as diabetes or your parents can't afford an education giving you the chance of a decently paying job, better go die. That being said, just looking at the raw numbers I'd dare to say that health care in the US is just about as inconvenient and…

>If you're born with a chronic condition such as diabetes or your parents can't afford an education giving you the chance of a decently paying job, better go die.

This has always been the case. Most of these people just died before while today we have methods to keep them alive.

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