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Linux – The beginning of the end?

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Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#121

Post by Certhas »

zeroname wrote: post #120
Certhas wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fair, it's definitely a way to read this. I shouldn't respond to hyperbolic language with the like. I'll edit it. Edit: Too late, I can't edit anymore unfortunately. Let me rephrase: "Behaving like a decent human being isn't that hard. It's work that anyone who wants to work in a collaborative project can reasonably be expected to do. If this is objectionable to you, then maybe this collaboration isn't for you…

> Behaving like a decent human being isn't that hard. It can be quite hard to live up to everyone's standards of "decency". You just failed to do it. > I shouldn't respond to hyperbolic language with the like. Write that on the chalkboard one hundred times and maybe we'll let it slide. This time.

Yeah, I was called out on it, and I corrected myself. I wouldn't want to be part of a project that bans people who make an effort towards decency. The fact that standards differ and a consensus needs to be found for what constitutes decency is not an argument against it.

What point are you trying to illustrate? Are you saying I shouldn't have been called out on it? Because I disagree. The fact was, I found the post I replied to annoying, and I replied in a tone that was stronger than it needed to be. It's a good thing that was called out. Next time I'll take a breather before replying and we'll have a more constructive exchange.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#123

Post by Sacho »

Certhas wrote: post #121
zeroname wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Behaving like a decent human being isn't that hard. It can be quite hard to live up to everyone's standards of "decency". You just failed to do it. > I shouldn't respond to hyperbolic language with the like. Write that on the chalkboard one hundred times and maybe we'll let it slide. This time.

Yeah, I was called out on it, and I corrected myself. I wouldn't want to be part of a project that bans people who make an effort towards decency. The fact that standards differ and a consensus needs to be found for what constitutes decency is not an argument against it. What point are you trying to illustrate? Are you saying I shouldn't have been called out on it? Because I disagree. The fact was, I found the post I…

I believe they were trying to refute your initial point:

> Because behaving like a decent human being is that hard, isn't it?

By pointing out that you weren't able to live up to that standard even when trying to champion it. How hard will it be if you're in a heated argument with someone when your work is at stake?

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#124

Post by belorn »

rbanffy wrote: post #9

I really, genuinely, don't understand why such a bland code of conduct would be a turn off to anyone. I may not be easy to be around, but I try not to be abrasive while, at the same time, making clear why I think something is the way I think. If you think someone is wrong very often, I believe saying why the person is wrong on every occasion will provide them with actionable information much better than calling them…

A repeating pattern I saw on the mailing list is that people who oppose the code of conduct does so from fear that it will be wielded as a weapon in misunderstandings and politics.

What I also saw is basically 3 different type of camps. The one I mentioned above. The second group which think the code of conduct is good, needed, and will change the kernel maintainers so it has more diverse group. Last the group that is supposed to enforce the code of conduct and who has consistently proclaim that that isn't their job and that the code of conduct is more of a guide in mediation. The group I have not seen is those who say they need the code of conduct to feel safe as developers.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#125

Post by notdeniro »

amaccuish wrote: post #74
CryptoRetired wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. There’s a half dozen there I used to contribute to... and one I didn’t realize had adopted it. If I ever need to add a feature to one of them I’ll have to fork it. But I think that it needs a “no CoC” license. That list, by the way, is a list of projects run by people who bowed to pressure and didn’t really think it thru or believed the lies pushed by those pushing the CoC. I know this first hand for the project…

> That list, by the way, is a list of projects run by people who bowed to pressure and didn’t really think it thru or believed the lies pushed by those pushing the CoC. Are you implying that those who support a CoC are lying or somehow not "strong" enough to oppose it? You've stated elsewhere [0] your objection that people who oppose a CoC are implied to be bigoted. And yet here you are assuming that those who have n…

Perhaps they don’t want to get called a “rape apologist” by the CoC pushers like that T’so guy who didn’t sign? It happened with zero repercussions to the offenders too since they’re the mob in charge. There’s your problem.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#126

Post by notdeniro »

zeroname wrote: post #99
amaccuish wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how does not having a CoC stop that? Like, if someone takes a dislike to someone, and they have sufficient power, they can remove them anyway.

You just said it yourself, they need to have sufficient power . Following one of these CoCs to the letter, I could levee infringements against practically anyone, even if I only made minor contributions.

And that could get you blacklisted in other totally unrelated projects.

Good times!

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#127

Post by Certhas »

Sacho wrote: post #123
Certhas wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I was called out on it, and I corrected myself. I wouldn't want to be part of a project that bans people who make an effort towards decency. The fact that standards differ and a consensus needs to be found for what constitutes decency is not an argument against it. What point are you trying to illustrate? Are you saying I shouldn't have been called out on it? Because I disagree. The fact was, I found the post I…

I believe they were trying to refute your initial point: > Because behaving like a decent human being is that hard, isn't it? By pointing out that you weren't able to live up to that standard even when trying to champion it. How hard will it be if you're in a heated argument with someone when your work is at stake?

Thanks.

I don't know, this is the topic I get most heated about, I successfully lead pretty diverse teams, this definitely wouldn't happen to me in that context. After all discussion message boards like this are also a different context than a professional mailing list (and I strongly believe that context is important and not always appropriately taken into account).

Just because something isn't that hard, doesn't mean we don't slip up sometimes. So I'd stand by my assessment. It isn't that hard. I expect it of myself and my team. I still sometimes fail. Then a CoC, being called out on it, and given constructive criticism helps me.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#128

Post by DanBC »

rndgermandude wrote: post #56
Certhas wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because behaving like a decent human being is that hard, isn't it? If a code of conduct hurts your feelings that much maybe you're just not cut out for collaborative work. I really wonder where the great fear that CoCs will be abused to shut down disagreement comes from. I am not a fan of policing language, but there just aren't many real examples of such abuse out there. Here is the actual list of examples from the…

> Because behaving like a decent human being is that hard, isn't it? If a code of conduct hurts your feelings that much maybe you're just not cut out for collaborative work. This is a personal attack, very thinly veiled. If Hacker News had the same code of conduct, your account would have to be banned at worst.

Hacker News does have a code of conduct, and the comment was flagged.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#129

Post by notdeniro »

ATsch wrote: post #35

I find the doom-and-gloom over the CoC change absolutely silly. Plenty of projects have a CoC and none of them have just died a fiery death because there were rules against treating people badly. As other people pointed out, there's a big difference between putting everything into 15 layers of business speak and just not insulting people. Linus is, to me, obviously advocating the latter.

You fail to understand there’s a difference between “don’t abuse others” and “don’t say things we don’t approve of, anywhere including your private life, and if we want to we’ll sort through all your social media history to find comments we don’t like then use that to publicly shame you and kick you out of projects. Oh and you gotta let our friends in even if they don’t contribute”.

I can tell you’re a shill or you don’t have all the information

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#130

Post by rbanffy »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #97
rbanffy wrote: post #9

I really, genuinely, don't understand why such a bland code of conduct would be a turn off to anyone. I may not be easy to be around, but I try not to be abrasive while, at the same time, making clear why I think something is the way I think. If you think someone is wrong very often, I believe saying why the person is wrong on every occasion will provide them with actionable information much better than calling them…

> I really, genuinely, don't understand This means you haven't read the article.

I did, and I don't agree with its conclusions.
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