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Poka-yoke

en.wikipedia.org

21–30 of 62 posts

Re: Poka-yoke

#21

I wrote about putting a line on your shower handle to denote 'good temp'. (used a shower crayon, or anything) Now I put my handle in the correct location and its warm everyday.

This only works if you have a thermostatic mixer or consistent temperature of your hot water. The gold standard is a pressure-balanced thermostatic mixer, which always outputs the same temperature at the same setting. Most of them come with two knobs, "temperature" and "flow". I miss the one I had a while ago.

Even without a thermostatic mixer, “good temp” is unlikely to be freezing cold or scalding hot. It’s a good enough first approximation that you can correct after you jump in

Re: Poka-yoke

#22

This seems like an interesting and useful process design concept on one hand, and on the other hand, it also sounds like a Japanese buzzword for foolproofing (in fact, the article notes that the term was originally “baka-yoke”, which is literally “foolproof” or “idiot-proof”). On the one hand, I don’t think Toyota invented the concept of foolproofing; on the other hand, giving it a cool buzzword gives you an excuse t…

>I’m also kind of amused at how the entire business world basically said, “man, this company made super reliable cars in the 80’s and 90’s[1], let’s learn their secrets” and it turns out that once you strip away the exotic Japanese veneer, it’s mostly just systemized common sense. Which is not a minor thing to do, to be fair, except it’s easy for businesses to take good, well-systemized ideas and utterly misapply them.

This was basically all done over UAW's dead body. It's not like process engineers working at the big three in the 80s didn't want to do those things. They were aware of what industry best practices were as any competent professionals would be. They just couldn't get those best practices implemented until the Japanese manufacturers created an existential threat to the status quo.

Cyber security is in a similar situation today. The will to do the known right things is not there and won't be until there's an existential threat to the companies that are being lazy. Whether that threat will be regulatory, market based or something else but I guarantee little will change until it becomes a binary choice between change and going out of business.

> As far as I know, they still make reliable cars.

There's a pretty substantial lag between reality and market perception. All the people paying lightly used 3/4 ton truck and fullsize SUV prices for Tacomas and 4Runners with 100k+ on them had better hope that what they're buying today lives up to the reputation of vehicles sold 10-20yr ago.

>we’re 26 years away from seeing if today’s Camry is quite that reliable.

Unless they make a complete turd it will be more reliable because they hold their value well giving them a longer period of time when they are out of reach of customers who are hard on equipment.

Vehicles move down the economic ladder as they change hands. Rich people have more free cash flow to spend maintaining their car (especially preventative maintenance). This skews age based reliability data in favor of whatever vehicles wealthier people drive.

Economic factors make differences in vehicle reliability from brand to brand look much greater than they are.

If you want to see this in action look for 80s GM sedans on Craigslist in a state that salts the roads. The Buicks, Olds, and Caddys are over-represented because their first and second owners were more likely park them in a garage (or at least off the street), pay for preventative maintenance, etc. allowing them to stick around longer because they were (on average) in better condition than the equivalent average Chevy of the same age, had more useful life left, etc. The upscale cars had to get to their 2nd and 3rd owners before they were treated the way the Chevys were treated by their first and second owners giving them the appearance of greater reliability despite being the exact same platforms. the chevy might have 3-5 owners before going to the junkyard whereas the Caddy may have 4-7 (and therefore stick around for more years) because it basically starts off several rungs higher on the economic ladder.

Re: Poka-yoke

#23
post #6

This seems like an interesting and useful process design concept on one hand, and on the other hand, it also sounds like a Japanese buzzword for foolproofing (in fact, the article notes that the term was originally “baka-yoke”, which is literally “foolproof” or “idiot-proof”). On the one hand, I don’t think Toyota invented the concept of foolproofing; on the other hand, giving it a cool buzzword gives you an excuse t…

> giving it a cool buzzword They called it the obvious word in their own language, it's only a cool buzzword to non-native speakers reading English Wikipedia. > systemized common sense Of course. And still businesses are full of systemic problems, where common sense fails. Just like well written programs are just "systemized instructions", but most programs are buggy and brittle. Clarity in defining and executing on…

> They called it the obvious word in their own language, it's only a cool buzzword to non-native speakers reading English Wikipedia.

I'm more making fun of the American business consultants who are going to try and cargo-cult this idea and make it sound more impressive than it actually is by not using the already commonplace American English idiom that describes the same concept.

The term "poka-yoke" seems to date from the 1960's, while "foolproof" is well-attested before WWII, which makes me recklessly speculate that the term is likely a translation from the English in the first place. Since Japan sought out and received a lot of guidance and advice from Americans about rebuilding their manufacturing industry (which is logical, given the fact that we more or less won the war by out-manufacturing them), I wouldn't be surprised if someone casually used the word "foolproof", and merely translating the idiom introduced the underlying concept. (Kind of like how we stole "earworm" and "punchable face" from German idioms). And hey, maybe the extra step of introducing a new foreign idiom, or even reintroducing an idiom that we already have, is valuable because it puts a bright flashing light on it. Buzzwords only become buzzwords because there's a substance behind them, it's just when the bright flashing light outshines the substance that it becomes a problem.

> Clarity in defining and executing on simple concepts is worth a lot.

See, that's the thing, it's execution. You can talk about foolproofing your processes and your tools, and half the time you end up getting in people's way as often as you prevent any actual errors, because no matter how well you foolproof something, there's always some fool out there who's even smarter than you are when it comes to discovering new and creative ways to screw things up. But the other half of the time, not doing it is going to just completely burn you. The judgment of differentiating those two cases from each other is the valuable part, not just the concept of error-proofing (or poka-yoke) in the first place.

Re: Poka-yoke

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This only works if you have a thermostatic mixer or consistent temperature of your hot water. The gold standard is a pressure-balanced thermostatic mixer, which always outputs the same temperature at the same setting. Most of them come with two knobs, "temperature" and "flow". I miss the one I had a while ago.

I don't have a fancy mixer, but if your hot water heater is reasonably consistent and you have a working main pressure regulating valve, you should have enough consistency for this to work.

It's funny because you'd think that'd be the case, but in practice the difference is night and day. Thermostatic mixers will often have a temperature dial on the output, and it'll be within ~2 degrees of that temperature as soon as the hot water available exceeds that temperature.

Re: Poka-yoke

#25
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> giving it a cool buzzword They called it the obvious word in their own language, it's only a cool buzzword to non-native speakers reading English Wikipedia. > systemized common sense Of course. And still businesses are full of systemic problems, where common sense fails. Just like well written programs are just "systemized instructions", but most programs are buggy and brittle. Clarity in defining and executing on…

> They called it the obvious word in their own language, it's only a cool buzzword to non-native speakers reading English Wikipedia. I'm more making fun of the American business consultants who are going to try and cargo-cult this idea and make it sound more impressive than it actually is by not using the already commonplace American English idiom that describes the same concept. The term "poka-yoke" seems to date fr…

In a large part, it's because Western business practices suffer from a lot of ego. I suspect consulting has a lot of cargo-culting because you need to wrap things up in a foreign veneer in order to implement certain optimizations without outright calling someone an idiot.

Re: Poka-yoke

#26

This seems like an interesting and useful process design concept on one hand, and on the other hand, it also sounds like a Japanese buzzword for foolproofing (in fact, the article notes that the term was originally “baka-yoke”, which is literally “foolproof” or “idiot-proof”). On the one hand, I don’t think Toyota invented the concept of foolproofing; on the other hand, giving it a cool buzzword gives you an excuse t…

Industrial Engineer here, This is not a buzz word, this is the name of the tool we use. 4/4 companies Ive been at used Poke-Yoke, Poka-Yoke, or Error Proofing interchangeably. And while I dont own a Japanese car, I can verify the 'common sense' ideas had a resurgence as Toyota applied a process to these principles. It seems nearly every company MUST apply them or they are uncompetitive. From a plant with 50 employees…

I'm also an engineer building industrial automation systems. And I've sold dozens with poka yokes, done kaizen reviews (improvements), and used scanners/plant-machine communication for kanban (JIT/lean manufacturing).

I think the important thing to note here is not that when you use the Japanese word, it becomes a process, a tool, a requirement you can mandate and sell - not just common sense.

If you just call it idiot-proofing, people too often reject additional cost, process time, and complexity. If that sensor and part test are there because those are the poka yokes so you can't load it backwards, people don't push back as much.

Re: Poka-yoke

#27

One of my favorite examples of poka-yoke is the Apple MagSafe charger. The magnetic part itself is foolproof, sure. But the genius part is the small metal knob that meshes with the removable AC prong piece. It is impossible to insert that piece in any other way than it was intended, and the solution is unobtrusive, clean, and simple.

I still don’t get why they removed it. MagSafe was a great thing. Sure some people got things stuck in the connector but that is a much smaller problem than having your laptop pulled along with the cable when someone trips on your charger.

Anecdotally, I just accidentally kicked my USB-C charger loose, from the charger side. Pretty sure that would have stressed the old MagSafe cables.

I expect to have to replace the cable at some point, but not the charging brick or the ports. For those with large dogs, toddlers, or just klutziness (I'm borderline), magnetic breakaway cables are available.

Re: Poka-yoke

#28

This seems like an interesting and useful process design concept on one hand, and on the other hand, it also sounds like a Japanese buzzword for foolproofing (in fact, the article notes that the term was originally “baka-yoke”, which is literally “foolproof” or “idiot-proof”). On the one hand, I don’t think Toyota invented the concept of foolproofing; on the other hand, giving it a cool buzzword gives you an excuse t…

It is more than a buzzword. It is a fundamental tool in process design. And there is a lot of ingenuity in creating good poka-yoke solutions.

Re: Poka-yoke

#29

This seems like an interesting and useful process design concept on one hand, and on the other hand, it also sounds like a Japanese buzzword for foolproofing (in fact, the article notes that the term was originally “baka-yoke”, which is literally “foolproof” or “idiot-proof”). On the one hand, I don’t think Toyota invented the concept of foolproofing; on the other hand, giving it a cool buzzword gives you an excuse t…

I drive a 95 Pontiac Grand Prix with little fuss. Treated right, cars are extremely reliable.

Re: Poka-yoke

#30

This seems like an interesting and useful process design concept on one hand, and on the other hand, it also sounds like a Japanese buzzword for foolproofing (in fact, the article notes that the term was originally “baka-yoke”, which is literally “foolproof” or “idiot-proof”). On the one hand, I don’t think Toyota invented the concept of foolproofing; on the other hand, giving it a cool buzzword gives you an excuse t…

It is surprising how many problems can be solved with common sense. Whta Toyota did was codifying it in a rather elegant way. They gained a considerable advantage by doing so.

Also surprising how hard the implementation of common sense can be. Also true that only a few companies really manage to implement lean / TPS methods correctly in the way Toyota did.

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