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The Socratic Method in an Age of Trauma (2017) [pdf]

harvardlawreview.org

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Re: The Socratic Method in an Age of Trauma (2017) [pdf]

#11

Post by pjc50 »

roenxi wrote: post #8

Well, it is nice to see someone going straight for the details. Do we have any context on why this ... short novel :) ... was written? I want to interpret this as a coinciding of two things; the first that the "Socratic Method" as described here would be a powerful method of creating and perpetuating a culture amongst law students trained at Harvard; where their opinions and beliefs are subjected to a very public exa…

It's a law review article, looks about 14000 words. This fulfils roughly the same professional role as science papers, except because this is law the core activity is to advance an argument through references and narrative. It's the same kind of size and complexity as a doctoral thesis except that as a professional you're expected to produce them a bit quicker, say 1-2 months of work.

It's probably the minimum necessary for a serious investigation of the topic, rather than a glib condemnation of trigger warnings.

Re: The Socratic Method in an Age of Trauma (2017) [pdf]

#13

Post by mirimir »

pjc50 wrote: post #11
roenxi wrote: post #8

Well, it is nice to see someone going straight for the details. Do we have any context on why this ... short novel :) ... was written? I want to interpret this as a coinciding of two things; the first that the "Socratic Method" as described here would be a powerful method of creating and perpetuating a culture amongst law students trained at Harvard; where their opinions and beliefs are subjected to a very public exa…

It's a law review article, looks about 14000 words. This fulfils roughly the same professional role as science papers, except because this is law the core activity is to advance an argument through references and narrative. It's the same kind of size and complexity as a doctoral thesis except that as a professional you're expected to produce them a bit quicker, say 1-2 months of work. It's probably the minimum necess…

> It's the same kind of size and complexity as a doctoral thesis except that as a professional you're expected to produce them a bit quicker, say 1-2 months of work.

As I recall, it only took me about two months to write my PhD thesis. The hard part, which took a few years, was finding an interesting question, and collecting the requisite data. And also, getting up to speed on some decades of literature. But subsequent papers didn't take much more than a few months each.

Re: The Socratic Method in an Age of Trauma (2017) [pdf]

#14

Post by huffmsa »

huffmsa wrote: post #12

"sorry your Honor, I can't show up to the courtroom today because the prosecution will be showing pictures of the victim of my client's alleged butchery as evidence and I saw a dead body once as a kid and I have PTSD." The night is dark and full of terrors.

"Sorry Jane Doe (victim), I can't prosecute your alleged assailant because I didn't take the sexual assault portion of law school because I just couldn't even, even though I'm a man, I'm an ally and this needs to stop, but someone else needs to do it."

Re: The Socratic Method in an Age of Trauma (2017) [pdf]

#15

Post by huffmsa »

imgabe wrote: post #9
Buldak wrote: post #5

Despite completing degrees in philosophy, I've never experienced the sort of "Socratic" method that is apparently practiced in law schools. I gather that the harm consists, not in the general method of posing questions, but the way that professors put students on the spot and may humiliate them if their answers are unsatisfactory. The point the author makes about the way that this ritual enforces hierarchy is interes…

> I guess you might defend the "Socratic" method as a way of encouraging student engagement. But I suspect that it really appeals to people who like the idea of discourse as combat (DEBATE ME!) I think that is the trait that law schools want to select for.

That's the heart of the issue. The JD has recently become the envogue MBA. So it's been getting a lot of students who aren't there to actually learn about being a lawyer.

Re: The Socratic Method in an Age of Trauma (2017) [pdf]

#16

Post by pjc50 »

huffmsa wrote: post #12

"sorry your Honor, I can't show up to the courtroom today because the prosecution will be showing pictures of the victim of my client's alleged butchery as evidence and I saw a dead body once as a kid and I have PTSD." The night is dark and full of terrors.

The difference between the Harvard Law Review and glib dismissals of a serious issue is the other 14,000 words of the article.

Re: The Socratic Method in an Age of Trauma (2017) [pdf]

#17

Post by huffmsa »

pjc50 wrote: post #16
huffmsa wrote: post #12

"sorry your Honor, I can't show up to the courtroom today because the prosecution will be showing pictures of the victim of my client's alleged butchery as evidence and I saw a dead body once as a kid and I have PTSD." The night is dark and full of terrors.

The difference between the Harvard Law Review and glib dismissals of a serious issue is the other 14,000 words of the article.

No, I read it. I think the Socratic approach is the best way to teach law.

The profession requires one to be outwardly strident, speak up and fight for your points lest the opposing counsel win.

We have electrician learn by doing electrical work. Doctors do residencies. If you aren't the right personality for the profession, then that's the breaks.

And finally, length of ones document is not an indication of quality. If that were the case, the United States Constitution (shortest in the world, ~4000 words ) wouldn't be the longest tenured.

Re: The Socratic Method in an Age of Trauma (2017) [pdf]

#18

Post by liftbigweights »

Buldak wrote: post #5

Despite completing degrees in philosophy, I've never experienced the sort of "Socratic" method that is apparently practiced in law schools. I gather that the harm consists, not in the general method of posing questions, but the way that professors put students on the spot and may humiliate them if their answers are unsatisfactory. The point the author makes about the way that this ritual enforces hierarchy is interes…

> Despite completing degrees in philosophy, I've never experienced the sort of "Socratic" method that is apparently practiced in law schools

The socratic method isn't really practiced anywhere in academia. Even in philosophy classes, it's mostly passive learning through an authority figure. It's why so many students take notes. You can't take notes while participating in a socratic discussion. Also, socratic method requires a small group ( preferably 1 on 1 ) where you throw questions and answers back and forth. In a class of 20 or 200, that's simply not practical.

A parent and a child sometimes engage in socratic discussions. The kid asks a question, parent answers, then the kid ask question in relation to the answer and then the parent might ask "why do you think that is" and back and forth.

The socratic method requires a lot of investment on both parties/sides. Whereas passive learning doesn't require much investment. Professor lectures and the students copies what he says.

Re: The Socratic Method in an Age of Trauma (2017) [pdf]

#19

Post by watwut »

liftbigweights wrote: post #18
Buldak wrote: post #5

Despite completing degrees in philosophy, I've never experienced the sort of "Socratic" method that is apparently practiced in law schools. I gather that the harm consists, not in the general method of posing questions, but the way that professors put students on the spot and may humiliate them if their answers are unsatisfactory. The point the author makes about the way that this ritual enforces hierarchy is interes…

> Despite completing degrees in philosophy, I've never experienced the sort of "Socratic" method that is apparently practiced in law schools The socratic method isn't really practiced anywhere in academia. Even in philosophy classes, it's mostly passive learning through an authority figure. It's why so many students take notes. You can't take notes while participating in a socratic discussion. Also, socratic method r…

Why would it be impossible to take notes during discussion of questions and answers? If it is, then the whole discussion was likely about speed and reflex instead of thought out answers (which takes a bit more time and is slower).

Re: The Socratic Method in an Age of Trauma (2017) [pdf]

#20

Post by nkurz »

allthenews wrote: post #7
dang wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's far from an accurate summary of the article. From the portions I read, it's full of rich information and by no means as one-sided as you claim. Would you please stop posting shallow dismissals and ideological rants to HN? You've been breaking the HN guideline that asks you not to use this site primarily for ideological battle. We ban accounts that do this, regardless of which ideology they're for or against. P…

>Kennedy pointed out that the legal professional style to which students learn to assimilate is “overwhelmingly white, male, and middle class.”46 But the Socratic method’s encounter with gender, race, and class diversity might related- ly occasion worry about exclusion or oppression in a more tangible way. That is, if the Socratic method causes the kind of terror and disempowerment in students that some have observed…

I didn't inject ideology into this discussion. If you want to be consistent this article shouldn't be allowed either. This is blatant racism, sexism, and classism.

The irony is that your "summary" seems to have confused the author's preface describing current trends with her personal opinion. In fact, the majority of the article argues the opposite side, saying that a proper legal education is more important than the risk of offense:

I am a cold-calling Socratic professor of criminal law who devotes about the same number of hours in class to sex offenses as to homicide. The subjects are comparable in their interest, difficulty, complexity, and relevance in the world in which we live. I treat them with the same level of seriousness and rigor.

She then goes on to explain why she doesn't use trigger warnings because she thinks they are counterproductive. She's making an essentially conservative argument, while you are mistakenly complaining that it's too biased to the liberal side. Dan isn't complaining that you brought ideology into the discussion, but that your "summary" was simplistic and wrong.

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