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Linux – The beginning of the end?

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Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#101

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #52
fefe23 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Illuminatus books there is a story that may help illuminate this. Some dude posts signs in a store that say "DO NOT SPIT ON THE FLOOR. --MGT". The staff assumes it's from management, so they leave the signs up. The customers feel insulted that management would think they would spit on the floor, so they stop buying there. The store goes bust. The apparent blandness of the CoC may exactly be the problem.

That example shows a clear problem in the employee/management relationship. Putting up signs like that without adequately informing the employees is really bad passive aggressive management. Likewise, the employees simply accepting such a change being made is a clear indicator that they're either afraid to ask questions of the management for fear of reprisals, or that they've simply stopped caring about what manageme…

> the employees simply accepting such a change being made

You know, in many places confronting management about the changes they introduce is not something that is generally practiced, and if you do that, especially in a semi-public way (even if that means Cc:-ing a few coworkers), you're simply at risk. This applies to small mom-and-pop shops, and equally applies to Google.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#102

Post by honestoHeminway »

Guthur wrote: post #33
scirocco wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. Open Source values will still remain - working in a transparent, open (not always nice) way. More with CoC, harassing people will not be tolerated

Harassing is a continued assault. Calling some one stupid might be insulting but it is not harassment

What if someone stupid, mounts a continued pull-request assault on my codebase?

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#103

Post by alkonaut »

CryptoRetired wrote: post #27
scirocco wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. Open Source values will still remain - working in a transparent, open (not always nice) way. More with CoC, harassing people will not be tolerated

The entire point of the CoC is it creates a process whereby people not involved in the project can harass members of the project while remaining anonymous. Notice the people making a stink about Linus do it by taking out of context, lying about what he said and have managed to get people to think he should step down.(and are putting in place a “code” that lets them do it even though he’s the kindest non-bigoted perso…

> The entire point of the CoC is it creates a process whereby people not involved in the project can harass members of the project while remaining anonymous.

So there is a lot of people peripheral to these projects, that want nothing more than to disrupt by harassing people completely unknown to them, under a veil of anonymity? And that's the point of these CoC's?

Who are these people you speak of? Some secret cabal of "SJW's"?

You are saying the point isn't to codify some ground rules for collaboration and communication, which are then in rare cases abused by some individuals, the abuse is the point? Please.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#104

Post by notacoward »

CryptoRetired wrote: post #15

I am a gay man[0] who has contributed to a number of open source projects significantly. However I stopped when they implemented “Code of Conducts” that deny basic rights such as innocent until proven guilty and the right to face your accuser. (The popular one keeps accusers anonymous, thus the victim has no chance to defend themselves.) The truth is a maintainer can eject someone without a CoC. The purpose of CoC, a…

> The purpose of CoC, as stated by its author ... is to eradicate meritocracy.

For the sake of clarity, it's important to note here that "meritocracy" is a deeply contentious word. What "merit" is being rewarded? True technical ability/contribution? Measured how? Or access and privilege (for which it's a misnomer but still often used)? Which definition does the author of the CoC oppose? Which definition do you defend? You obviously intend "eradicate meritocracy" as a condemnation, but some might see eradicating pretend meritocracy as a good thing.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#105

Post by IshKebab »

Oh come on. Linus isn't just direct in a culturally different way. He calls people idiots and belittles them all the time. You can be direct without that and I'm glad Linus has finally realised it (seriously; it's extremely difficult to admit your flaws).

Have a look: https://www.reddit.com/r/linusrants/

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#106

Post by 08-15 »

kmmbvnr_ wrote: post #6
lanevorockz wrote: post #2

I am a Linux developer and contributor for a few decades and the code of conduct simply killed any interest in contributing to it. It won't take long until backdoors are introduced on Linux. Activists that joined the community for money will have full control and the ability of banning any criticism. We really need Linus back.

Sounds like conspiracy theory. There is no relationship between introducing CoC and adding backdoors.

That's a suspiciously specific denial.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#107

Post by krylon »

CryptoRetired wrote: post #66
ATsch wrote: post #35

I find the doom-and-gloom over the CoC change absolutely silly. Plenty of projects have a CoC and none of them have just died a fiery death because there were rules against treating people badly. As other people pointed out, there's a big difference between putting everything into 15 layers of business speak and just not insulting people. Linus is, to me, obviously advocating the latter.

BSD is dying.

I don't think OpenBSD is ever going to adopt a CoC, so they should be fine. ;-)

duck

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#108

Post by notacoward »

quantummkv wrote: post #76

> You cannot expect people from Finland, Spain, Turkey, Namibia, or Japan to behave the same way, talk the same way, express themselves the same way. You cannot expect them to just normalize to a cookie-cutter template and move on. That does not work. And yet, that's the expectation, because that's how the US-centric IT world is designed. This. Right here. The fanatics in the OSS world (and Tech at large) seem to hav…

> The fanatics in the OSS world (and Tech at large) seem to have forgotten that Silicon Valley != The World

When it comes to attitudes and languages, Silicon Valley is sometimes quite different than tech in the rest of the US. As a developer in the northeastern US, one of the adjustments I've had to make in working for an archetypal Silicon Valley company is to the way people express themselves and particularly how they express disagreement or criticism (i.e. in a way that can be interpreted either as more gentle or more passive-aggressive depending on context). You raise a good point, but I think the differences are even greater than you (or the OP) think.

Of course, talking about this on extremely SV-centric Hacker News might not achieve very much.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#109

Post by KozmoNau7 »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #101
KozmoNau7 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That example shows a clear problem in the employee/management relationship. Putting up signs like that without adequately informing the employees is really bad passive aggressive management. Likewise, the employees simply accepting such a change being made is a clear indicator that they're either afraid to ask questions of the management for fear of reprisals, or that they've simply stopped caring about what manageme…

> the employees simply accepting such a change being made You know, in many places confronting management about the changes they introduce is not something that is generally practiced, and if you do that, especially in a semi-public way (even if that means Cc:-ing a few coworkers), you're simply at risk. This applies to small mom-and-pop shops, and equally applies to Google.

Which is a definite sign of a sick management culture and companies run by dictators, with no regard for the well-being of their employees.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#110

Post by Certhas »

rndgermandude wrote: post #56
Certhas wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because behaving like a decent human being is that hard, isn't it? If a code of conduct hurts your feelings that much maybe you're just not cut out for collaborative work. I really wonder where the great fear that CoCs will be abused to shut down disagreement comes from. I am not a fan of policing language, but there just aren't many real examples of such abuse out there. Here is the actual list of examples from the…

> Because behaving like a decent human being is that hard, isn't it? If a code of conduct hurts your feelings that much maybe you're just not cut out for collaborative work. This is a personal attack, very thinly veiled. If Hacker News had the same code of conduct, your account would have to be banned at worst.

That's fair, it's definitely a way to read this. I shouldn't respond to hyperbolic language with the like. I'll edit it.

Edit: Too late, I can't edit anymore unfortunately. Let me rephrase:

"Behaving like a decent human being isn't that hard. It's work that anyone who wants to work in a collaborative project can reasonably be expected to do. If this is objectionable to you, then maybe this collaboration isn't for you."

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