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Linux – The beginning of the end?

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Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#41

Post by patrickg_zill »

Certhas wrote: post #10
lanevorockz wrote: post #2

I am a Linux developer and contributor for a few decades and the code of conduct simply killed any interest in contributing to it. It won't take long until backdoors are introduced on Linux. Activists that joined the community for money will have full control and the ability of banning any criticism. We really need Linus back.

Because behaving like a decent human being is that hard, isn't it? If a code of conduct hurts your feelings that much maybe you're just not cut out for collaborative work. I really wonder where the great fear that CoCs will be abused to shut down disagreement comes from. I am not a fan of policing language, but there just aren't many real examples of such abuse out there. Here is the actual list of examples from the…

What commits did you get accepted into the kernel?

Code talks, bs walks...

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#42

Post by honestoHeminway »

rbanffy wrote: post #9

I really, genuinely, don't understand why such a bland code of conduct would be a turn off to anyone. I may not be easy to be around, but I try not to be abrasive while, at the same time, making clear why I think something is the way I think. If you think someone is wrong very often, I believe saying why the person is wrong on every occasion will provide them with actionable information much better than calling them…

Quality controll is always percieved as abusive?

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#43

Post by alkonaut »

aikah wrote: post #12
vesak wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rust, the programming language project, is one of the most inclusive projects there is, and they have a strong CoC. They seem to be doing fine. I don't think this is going to kill Linux. As for Linus's vacation/break/whatever, it's good that they're practicing giving the reins away. It is bound to happen at some future anyway. It's equally good that they're practicing behaving well, because it's quite possible that t…

> is one of the most inclusive projects there is There is absolutely no proof a CoC drives "inclusiveness", whatever it means, however there are multiple examples where codes of conducts were used to exclude contributors because they said something someone did not like in a setting completely unrelated to the project community. https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/drupal-larry-garfield-gor.htm... CoC are political tools to…

> said something someone did not like in a setting completely unrelated to the project community.

This is always a difficult line to draw. If you find out someone is a nazi (and thus would like to see you dead or preferably never born) it's hard to just look past that fact and colllaborate constructively just because the behavior was "unrelated to the project". The simple rule would be- would you be fired on the spot from your workplace if these comments were discovered? Then it's not so strange you might face issues in a collaborative project either.

> eliminate diversity of ideas

I think that's reading a bit much into the CoC to be honest.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#44

Post by kingofhdds »

I can relate to this, although for me it feels rather comical than offensive:

I find the phrase "I am excited" used in almost every business announcement to be offensive, because it is not genuine, nor does it indicate what type of excitement is being felt - excitement merely means an elevated state of emotions, could be good, could be bad

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#45

Post by tomlock »

> Not a corporate-approved kangaroo court.

Is this really what happened? To me it appeared like a bunch of Linus's close friends told him he was acting like a jerk, and he agreed. Building this into some kind of global movement out to punish wrongthink smacks of conspiracy theory to me.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#46

Post by M_Bakhtiari »

CryptoRetired wrote: post #21
rbanffy wrote: post #9

I really, genuinely, don't understand why such a bland code of conduct would be a turn off to anyone. I may not be easy to be around, but I try not to be abrasive while, at the same time, making clear why I think something is the way I think. If you think someone is wrong very often, I believe saying why the person is wrong on every occasion will provide them with actionable information much better than calling them…

If you don’t understand, maybe Consider the objections, instead of ( unintentionally) writing as if the people who object are presumed abusive or bigoted. That wasn’t your intention because you meant to just say you have no problem accepting criticism. But that’s the implication. And the idea of guilty until proven innocent, but you can’t defend yourself because you will never hear the accusation and your attacker ca…

Actually I was surprised by the Drupal guy since a lot of the people behind these CoCs seem to be various blue-haired kinksters themselves.

I don't think either that or Linus' excessive swearing belongs in a software project, but CoC makers clearly aren't interested in maintaining a civil society, they're just interested in maintaining their particular brand of ideology.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#47

Post by fefe23 »

rbanffy wrote: post #9

I really, genuinely, don't understand why such a bland code of conduct would be a turn off to anyone. I may not be easy to be around, but I try not to be abrasive while, at the same time, making clear why I think something is the way I think. If you think someone is wrong very often, I believe saying why the person is wrong on every occasion will provide them with actionable information much better than calling them…

In the Illuminatus books there is a story that may help illuminate this. Some dude posts signs in a store that say "DO NOT SPIT ON THE FLOOR. --MGT". The staff assumes it's from management, so they leave the signs up. The customers feel insulted that management would think they would spit on the floor, so they stop buying there. The store goes bust.

The apparent blandness of the CoC may exactly be the problem.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#48

Post by Tbrowaway1q72 »

CryptoRetired wrote: post #15

I am a gay man[0] who has contributed to a number of open source projects significantly. However I stopped when they implemented “Code of Conducts” that deny basic rights such as innocent until proven guilty and the right to face your accuser. (The popular one keeps accusers anonymous, thus the victim has no chance to defend themselves.) The truth is a maintainer can eject someone without a CoC. The purpose of CoC, a…

Sorry to say but proven until guilty and basic rights does not apply to everything in life (tax law, private endeavors, I can refuse service to someone, I can kick you out from my home without listening to you if I think you did something wrong). If someone is accusing you and they don't want to hear you, stop contributing. It is is not criminal justice. You are not obligated to spend your time fighting with assholes. Find better proj to spend your time on, just as you written.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#49

Post by tomlock »

mishurov wrote: post #38
lanevorockz wrote: post #2

I am a Linux developer and contributor for a few decades and the code of conduct simply killed any interest in contributing to it. It won't take long until backdoors are introduced on Linux. Activists that joined the community for money will have full control and the ability of banning any criticism. We really need Linus back.

This. I want to continue to use the based and red-pilled Linux instead of the SJW version.

Did you know the term "red-pilled" comes from a movie written by two trans women? Really makes you think.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#50

Post by [deleted] »

pjc50 wrote: post #23
aikah wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is one of the most inclusive projects there is There is absolutely no proof a CoC drives "inclusiveness", whatever it means, however there are multiple examples where codes of conducts were used to exclude contributors because they said something someone did not like in a setting completely unrelated to the project community. https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/drupal-larry-garfield-gor.htm... CoC are political tools to…

If you read the official Drupal statement it comes across very differently: https://www.drupal.org/association/blog/drupal-association-a... There was a dispute which was being handled privately, and in consultation with Larry, but he decided to attack the project in public over it.

[deleted]
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