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A DMT trip 'feels like dying' – and scientists now agree

bbc.co.uk

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Re: A DMT trip 'feels like dying' – and scientists now agree

#131

Post by browsercoin »

tr8 wrote: post #126
browsercoin wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's whats fucked up about it. I am not religious at all. Yet, what I experienced was on a spiritual level with real changes. it's crazy how common the themes are. did you hear extra-terrestrials? Like I literally heard a thought broadcasted from somewhere not on earth with the message "we aren't from earth but we are gonna help you out. clean your fucking room. move your computer to living room. get your shit toge…

Nope, I didn't hear voices. I had some auditory hallucinations though. It was mostly overwhelmingly positive and very spiritual to the point of making me cry.

yeah they were auditory hallucinations.

well, thanks to them, i have got some of my life back in order.

it could be that the mushroom trip creates a dissociation from internal thoughts and perceptions of the ego vs ego-less self, so you 'hear' your own thoughts.

Re: A DMT trip 'feels like dying' – and scientists now agree

#132

Post by browsercoin »

tr8 wrote: post #129
mrhappyunhappy wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you describe more what you meant by seeing eye of providence? What was the context around it? What exactly did you see, where, and what was happening? I’m just curious... did you search for the meaning after the fact? I take it you didn’t know it was called the eye of providence prior to that?

I had my eyes closed and was just watching stuff like silvery reflections and fractal like patterns and waves. At some point it just appeared as a triangle with an eye in it. It was a bit mysterious and may have had a slight glow to it. It wasn't a negative thing for me. I can't remember exactly but I think it probably was at the top of a pyramid. I didn't search for it until maybe 10 or so years later and started ge…

> silvery reflections

holy shit. was it shiny and pulsating? I saw the eye but no pyramid. But I recognize the eye from the dollar bill.

All I remember is looking at the shining, pulsating, eye and thinking, so this is what Truth looks like. No idea what the fuck that meant but I figured it out, and it was like being punched in the face-basically I looked at every aspect of my life, and that's what the "Eye" was implying to "Look", basically examine my life to figure out what needs to be done.

It was not negative at all but more of a WTF I WANT THIS TRIP TO STOP BUT IM ALSO FASCINATED. I use caps to illustrate the full state of panic and calm I was in.

After the trip and I googled 'third eye symbol' and I was shocked to see the similarities to the "Eye" I had witnessed but with a shape that looks like a thunder icon, which curiously enough is very similar to the Sanskrit for third eye....I have never ever seen it before either

Needless to say, my interest in hinduism and chakra exploded. i believe that I truly experienced a third eye opening moment. Like I was on a different plane of existence, where I am part of the whole, and that everything is everything and the most shocking conclusion of all:

There are dimensions beyond our world. In 3rd dimension, things don't make sense but in higher dimensions, the math works out according to Michio Kaku. His book goes into full detail but basically I absolutely believe that we are not seeing the true reality and that we might have been led on this path by very evil and greedy people who abuses the scientific process to invalidate the existence of common spiritual human experiences that arose indepedently by different civilizations but declared "null and void" by a highly materialistic driven empire where it's citizens are so spiritually starved that they will never be happy. No matter how rich and powerful their country becomes.

Re: A DMT trip 'feels like dying' – and scientists now agree

#133

Post by erikpukinskis »

filoeleven wrote: post #112
drakonka wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for sharing. I think too often we assume the concept of an "afterlife" implies some kind of supernatural or religious phenomenon. Since we don't have proof of it I can't say I definitely believe such a thing exists, but I certainly believe it's possible. If there is an "afterlife" I believe it fits into our natural laws and can be explained and observed scientifically - we just haven't discovered all of the…

It’s tricky, because the kinds of natural laws that are necessary for the existence of an afterlife are the same kinds of natural laws that invalidate the principle of physicalism or materialism, which is the consensus view of the scientific establishment today. So if you decide to investigate something easier to test for than “the afterlife” which could also plausibly exist with these expanded natural laws—like remo…

> the existence of an afterlife are the same kinds of natural laws that invalidate the principle of physicalism or materialism

I don't see why that follows.

There are lots of phenomena in the world, like money, which are manifest in a non-physical substrate. Many many other things are immaterial. The characters I am typing right now are immaterial. There are bits in memory that represent the characters, but it's only in interplay with an entire system of physical structures that you can say the characters themselves are manifest. You can't point somewhere and say "that's where the character is". It's diffuse across a bunch systems in such a way that it's not manifest in any one location.

Almost all of our social and political realities are like this. Where is Conservatism? Where is calculus? These are not things with locations, which is what makes them extremely difficult to study, which is why so many people reject things like Social Psychology or Science Studies as bunk science.

Money, algebra, and the capital M that starts this sentence are all things that exist, in a way that's totally compatible with materialism. It's not necessary to claim that these things exist outside of a material substrate. They merely exist above it. Distinct from it, yet contained within it. Fully determined by its laws, but not described by them.

Re: A DMT trip 'feels like dying' – and scientists now agree

#134

Post by posterboy »

pymai wrote: post #63
ggm wrote: post #23

Can anyone give a reason in darwinian terms, for why brains would evolve a feeling of detachment and contentment near death? I can't project a selfish-gene reason. Maybe, if you hypothesise its in the 'I die, so others live' space, its like altruistic behaviour and favours the group genome, not the individual

I have a vague recollection of someone suggesting small bits of DMT might be released while we sleep and that our dreams are like snack low key trips. Well dreams are a fairly beneficial things to have especially if you have some epiphany or figure out the solution to a problem you're having. The near death thing might just be your brain dumping that DMT out of your pineal gland all at once either when your body is s…

> snack

Can you paraphrase what that means? It's not a Freudian slip due to hunger, I hope. Asking out of prior curiosity for the word.

Re: A DMT trip 'feels like dying' – and scientists now agree

#135

Post by meowface »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #133
filoeleven wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s tricky, because the kinds of natural laws that are necessary for the existence of an afterlife are the same kinds of natural laws that invalidate the principle of physicalism or materialism, which is the consensus view of the scientific establishment today. So if you decide to investigate something easier to test for than “the afterlife” which could also plausibly exist with these expanded natural laws—like remo…

> the existence of an afterlife are the same kinds of natural laws that invalidate the principle of physicalism or materialism I don't see why that follows. There are lots of phenomena in the world, like money, which are manifest in a non-physical substrate. Many many other things are immaterial. The characters I am typing right now are immaterial. There are bits in memory that represent the characters, but it's only…

Consciousness is an abstract, non-physical structure and concept, but everything we know suggests it is inextricably tied to and an emergent phenomenon of the brain.

In the distant future there may be a way to extract and transfer consciousness into a new substrate, but with current technology, there's no reason to believe any sort of life, consciousness, sentience, awareness, etc. after death is possible at all. Just because it's possible in theory doesn't mean that applies to any currently living humans.

Re: A DMT trip 'feels like dying' – and scientists now agree

#136

Post by meowface »

filoeleven wrote: post #112
drakonka wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for sharing. I think too often we assume the concept of an "afterlife" implies some kind of supernatural or religious phenomenon. Since we don't have proof of it I can't say I definitely believe such a thing exists, but I certainly believe it's possible. If there is an "afterlife" I believe it fits into our natural laws and can be explained and observed scientifically - we just haven't discovered all of the…

It’s tricky, because the kinds of natural laws that are necessary for the existence of an afterlife are the same kinds of natural laws that invalidate the principle of physicalism or materialism, which is the consensus view of the scientific establishment today. So if you decide to investigate something easier to test for than “the afterlife” which could also plausibly exist with these expanded natural laws—like remo…

>There is plenty of evidence out there that points to something odd going on

Such as what? I don't believe there is.

>I came across an interesting and more rigorous set of studies done recently on how consciousness can influence quantum effects. They had observers try to influence the amount of interference generated by the double-slit experiment, and have repeatedly under various conditions gotten a significant effect. Perhaps most interesting is that while all humans had an effect, the meditators reliably outperformed the non-meditators. The setup is simple enough that it’s just begging for replication.

>Here’s the video link for any curious folks. Skip the first 5 minutes which is just a refresher on what the double slit experiment is:

>https://youtu.be/nRSBaq3vAeY

As you alluded to earlier in your post, this is complete quackery. It's been repeatedly demonstrated that quantum uncertainty has no relation to human (or any other) consciousness.

There's nothing to suggest that human (or dog or dolphin or octopus) consciousness is magical, supernatural, spiritual, metaphysical, or unable to be explained or understood.

Re: A DMT trip 'feels like dying' – and scientists now agree

#137

Post by erikpukinskis »

meowface wrote: post #135
erikpukinskis wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the existence of an afterlife are the same kinds of natural laws that invalidate the principle of physicalism or materialism I don't see why that follows. There are lots of phenomena in the world, like money, which are manifest in a non-physical substrate. Many many other things are immaterial. The characters I am typing right now are immaterial. There are bits in memory that represent the characters, but it's only…

Consciousness is an abstract, non-physical structure and concept, but everything we know suggests it is inextricably tied to and an emergent phenomenon of the brain. In the distant future there may be a way to extract and transfer consciousness into a new substrate, but with current technology, there's no reason to believe any sort of life, consciousness, sentience, awareness, etc. after death is possible at all. Jus…

> everything we know suggests it is inextricably tied to and an emergent phenomenon of the brain

I don’t think that’s universally accepted. I think trees are conscious and they have no brain.

I think the brain does create an illusion that other things are not conscious. It tricks us into thinking our own consciousnesses are distinct from the rest of consciousness. And that’s been a useful adaptation for us. And it confuses the hell out of consciousness philosophers. But we were conscious before we evolved it. It’s possible we were human before we evolved it.

> In the distant future there may be a way to extract and transfer consciousness into a new substrate

It’s possible such a thing already exists. We have ancient stories about it. If it were true it would be very difficult to detect.

If the universe is a simulation then it seems extremely unlikely that consciousnesses would never be read, just operating until they get eaten by the 2nd law.

Re: A DMT trip 'feels like dying' – and scientists now agree

#138

Post by erikpukinskis »

meowface wrote: post #136
filoeleven wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s tricky, because the kinds of natural laws that are necessary for the existence of an afterlife are the same kinds of natural laws that invalidate the principle of physicalism or materialism, which is the consensus view of the scientific establishment today. So if you decide to investigate something easier to test for than “the afterlife” which could also plausibly exist with these expanded natural laws—like remo…

>There is plenty of evidence out there that points to something odd going on Such as what? I don't believe there is. >I came across an interesting and more rigorous set of studies done recently on how consciousness can influence quantum effects. They had observers try to influence the amount of interference generated by the double-slit experiment, and have repeatedly under various conditions gotten a significant effe…

Can you link the replication study or analysis that reveals the flaw in the original?

> There's nothing to suggest that human consciousness is magical, supernatural, spiritual, metaphysical, or unable to be explained

I don’t think anyone is trying to argue against you. We’re just saying there is more to understand than science has so far done. We’re not saying science can’t reach what we imagine, just that it’s tough, and may require new physics.

Luckily modern physics also requires new physics. So we’re not alone.

Re: A DMT trip 'feels like dying' – and scientists now agree

#139

Post by erikpukinskis »

therein wrote: post #113
erikpukinskis wrote: post #55

> “There is nothing here to begin to enable us to propose that on DMT, you literally transcend the laws of this universe and do actually go to another world,” he says. This is faulty thinking. An afterlife doesn’t presuppose a violation of natural laws, or a separate world. It just means you continue living in a different form. The only thing that would be required for that is a causal relationship (yet to be observe…

Very well put. Not taking a stance, but rather just analyzing the constraints on possible conclusions. > The only thing that would be required for that is a causal relationship (yet to be observed in science) between your dying mind and some other living structure. Especially this part is phrased so accurately. Of course we are yet to observe anything similar to it either. Something that survives death and is capable…

Material yes. Not necessarily atomic though. Probably electrical since consciousness seems fairly electrical for humans.

Personally, I think the idea that you and I are separate is an illusion we evolved in order to protect ourselves more fiercely and to be more willing to kill.

Without it, you would understand that you are not separate from the rest of the living world, that your mind is a space where many immortal psychic creatures cross paths.

And part of life is to locate your self, that specific set of crossings, in the world.

So, immortal life just means dissociating from your body and associating with your crossings as they are in the world. (DMT is a dissociative so you can see how it could help.) A fully “enlightened” person will have located a complete, stable set of crossings, dissociated from everything else in their body, and broadcast that message out into the biosphere sufficiently long enough for it to be recorded.

There is more to this picture, involving non-“enlightened” reincarnation, which is something the inverse of those crossings will do at death as a form of rebalancing the consciousnesses disks, like a RAID array.

Most of these things are psychosocial. Believing them is more a matter of believing that you are as much a psychosocial being as you are a physical one.

Re: A DMT trip 'feels like dying' – and scientists now agree

#140

Post by meowface »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #138
meowface wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There is plenty of evidence out there that points to something odd going on Such as what? I don't believe there is. >I came across an interesting and more rigorous set of studies done recently on how consciousness can influence quantum effects. They had observers try to influence the amount of interference generated by the double-slit experiment, and have repeatedly under various conditions gotten a significant effe…

Can you link the replication study or analysis that reveals the flaw in the original? > There's nothing to suggest that human consciousness is magical, supernatural, spiritual, metaphysical, or unable to be explained I don’t think anyone is trying to argue against you. We’re just saying there is more to understand than science has so far done. We’re not saying science can’t reach what we imagine, just that it’s tough…

https://medium.com/@roblea_63049/the-double-slit-experiment-... is one of many examples of double slit "woo" debunking. In short, the issue is that any attempt at measuring the particle's position necessarily causes the wave function to collapse. This measuring has no relation to consciousness.
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