Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you? • Hacker News Board

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#91

Post by joshgel » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 7:38 PM UTC

quotemstr wrote: post #86

carbocation wrote: post #7

1. The best evidence that there is no safe amount of alcohol consumption is the Mendelian randomization (MR) by Holmes et al from 2014 [1]. I believe that the more recent paper making such claims is no better than the usual observational studies. But the MR paper is convincing to me. The risks for mild drinking appear to be low enough that I don't abstain, and I am happy to tell my patients about my thought process.…

> 2. While we like to claim that a study randomizing people to alcohol wouldn't be ethical, pre-2014 I don't think that would have been true. I think there was enough equipoise. Post-2014, I would need to see some strong counter-evidence to make me think there is equipoise once again. That's a very convenient way to socially forbid replication attempts. I don't buy it. The argument basically amounts to a claim that w…

What's the line? If we found that some intervention group had 90% mortality with the control group having 10% mortality in some experiment, I think you would agree we shouldn't repeat that experiment with a lot of people as you would be randomizing to something likely to kill them. What about 20% mortality to 10%? What about 11% to 10%? What degree of certainty about the results do you need? Obviously there is a line somewhere. But, its not easy, so I wouldn't recommend dismissing such concerns glibly. Is that the same as claiming we answered the question definitively, or is that just ethical research?

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#92

Post by sildur » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 7:42 PM UTC

That’s why I drink what I want and I eat what I want. I stopped caring about studies changing each year. Also, I’d very much prefer to die earlier from a heart attack than live longer and die from Alzheimer’s.

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#93

Post by thrower123 » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 7:44 PM UTC

negamax wrote: post #89

ardfie wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans have been making alcohol since prehistory. There are plenty of breweries, distilleries, and vineyards in Europe and Asia that have been continuously active for centuries.

True and it was never mass consumed and celebrated to this extent. Current situation is that despite the facts and knowledge, social pressure makes people drink. Despite the facts . The facts are overwhelming and we shouldn't just keep consuming alcohol because muah cultur . Many alcoholics end up causing traffic accidents and require lots of state support in other ways. Just walk into ED on any Saturday/Friday night…

People used to be drunk constantly - why do you think 19th century temperance movements were such a cultural force? Alcohol consumption was staggering in the past, to a degree we would consider insane today. Naval everyday rum rations alone would be well above the guidelines of being considered an alcoholic.

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#94

Post by malvosenior » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 7:50 PM UTC

negamax wrote: post #89

ardfie wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans have been making alcohol since prehistory. There are plenty of breweries, distilleries, and vineyards in Europe and Asia that have been continuously active for centuries.

True and it was never mass consumed and celebrated to this extent. Current situation is that despite the facts and knowledge, social pressure makes people drink. Despite the facts . The facts are overwhelming and we shouldn't just keep consuming alcohol because muah cultur . Many alcoholics end up causing traffic accidents and require lots of state support in other ways. Just walk into ED on any Saturday/Friday night…

Alcohol was consumed en mass more than it is now. Little kids would regularly drink. Often alcohol was drank instead of water for sanitation reasons. It's been a huge part of nearly every culture for thousands of years.

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#95

Post by andyidsinga » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 7:50 PM UTC

andyidsinga wrote: post #72

another-cuppa wrote: post #47

Obviously I can't say anything about my own longevity, but over the past few years my alcohol consumption has decreased to virtually zero and I've never felt better. I was never a big drinker, but I would semi-regularly go out and drink a few pints of beer or have wine with dinner. I never intended to cut down on alcohol, but my lifestyle changed, I stopped going out so much, and the drinking went with it. I would st…

> For some reason you are expected to provide a reason for why you don't drink I grew up in a family that didn't drink - and this was always weird/uncomfortable to explain to friends. I do drink now; but I've noticed over the years that it is becoming much more socially acceptable to not drink ..and people don't think it so strange; "I just don't like it", "religious beliefs", "trying to get healthier". So, yeah, peo…

related: I wonder if there is an emerging market for craft non-alcoholic cocktails in bars similar to the emergence of low-alcohol craft beers (in the ~2% range).

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#96

Post by bhk » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 7:53 PM UTC

alexlikeits1999 wrote: post #69

carbocation wrote: post #7

1. The best evidence that there is no safe amount of alcohol consumption is the Mendelian randomization (MR) by Holmes et al from 2014 [1]. I believe that the more recent paper making such claims is no better than the usual observational studies. But the MR paper is convincing to me. The risks for mild drinking appear to be low enough that I don't abstain, and I am happy to tell my patients about my thought process.…

Thank you very much for that first link. It seems to be severely under-publicised considering the huge amount of exposure that the topic gets. Do you happen to know if rs1229984 is linked to any particular group that could make this result problematic? I noticed that the paper mentions that "There was also some evidence for a difference in years of education, and, while the size of the effect was small, this requires…

> Do you happen to know if rs1229984 is linked to any particular group that could make this result problematic?

It seems to me that we would not have to know about the link in order for the conclusions to be unfounded. These MR analyses rest on the assumption that the instrument is not linked to any potential confounders. This seems like a bold and unwarranted assumption when we are talking about an instrument linked to behavior, given the complexity of the chain of events (chemical, biological, and psychological) between gene expression and observable human behavior.

That education red flag involves just one possible confounder out of many that were never considered.

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#97

Post by jotm » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 7:53 PM UTC

mrighele wrote: post #90

another-cuppa wrote: post #47

Obviously I can't say anything about my own longevity, but over the past few years my alcohol consumption has decreased to virtually zero and I've never felt better. I was never a big drinker, but I would semi-regularly go out and drink a few pints of beer or have wine with dinner. I never intended to cut down on alcohol, but my lifestyle changed, I stopped going out so much, and the drinking went with it. I would st…

> but I've realised that it makes me feel bad every time. Between not drinking alcohol at all and drinking so much that you feel bad the following day there is a middle ground of drinking moderately. If a low amount still makes you feel bad, drinking alcohol of a better quality can help (there is a huge difference in this regard between really cheap wines and more expensive ones).

Or... he could not drink at all. That's amazing, tbh, good for him.

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#98

Post by DenisM » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 7:54 PM UTC

justtopost wrote: post #79

lloydde wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you define quite unusual? I’m not East Asian, but I most often get symptoms similar to Alcohol Flush Reaction with even only a single drink. I often find a single beer strong. I’ve never been able to figure out why sometimes I’ll get a headache after a single beer. “Approximately 36% of East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans) show characteristic physiological responses to drinking alcohol that includes fa…

Diabetes, poor liver and/or kidney function, similar genetic mutation, etc. There are a host of reasons, I would bring it up with your physician, as they may have more insight than a psudoanonymous commenter.

Also medication.

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#99

Post by negamax » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 7:55 PM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #94

negamax wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True and it was never mass consumed and celebrated to this extent. Current situation is that despite the facts and knowledge, social pressure makes people drink. Despite the facts . The facts are overwhelming and we shouldn't just keep consuming alcohol because muah cultur . Many alcoholics end up causing traffic accidents and require lots of state support in other ways. Just walk into ED on any Saturday/Friday night…

Alcohol was consumed en mass more than it is now. Little kids would regularly drink. Often alcohol was drank instead of water for sanitation reasons. It's been a huge part of nearly every culture for thousands of years.

In that case we need to give up on a previous era bad habit as there’s overwhelming evidence that it’s bad

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#100

Post by jotm » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 7:56 PM UTC

marchenko wrote: post #83

antpls wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obviously I can't say anything about my own longevity, but over the past few years my alcohol consumption has decreased to virtually zero and I've never felt better. I was never a big drinker, but I would semi-regularly go out and drink a few pints of beer or have wine with dinner. I never intended to cut down on alcohol, but my lifestyle changed, I stopped going out so much, and the drinking went with it. I would…

I maintain that alcohol-free beer is one of the best post-workout drinks available. As I see it, the proper place of alcohol-free beer is not as a replacement for regular beer, but as a replacement for energy drinks and sodas.

What, why? Would kvass (0.5-2% abv, from fermented bread ) work then?