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Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

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Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#61
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because more people are becoming alcoholics Do you have a source for this claim, which both does a good job of defining a measurement schema for alcoholism and also shows convincingly that it is on the incline? Do you also have a source for the claim that this particular increase is the reason (or even a contributing factor) to the apparent decline in correlation between moderate wine consumption and positive healt…

This study[1] purports that alcoholism doubled during the decade after the turn of the millenium. It also has a concrete criteria for what they consider alcoholism. > Now this just seems like toxic thinking to me. Plenty of thoughtful, responsible people continually ask themselves whether they are experiencing various problems in life, and sometimes the answer really is "no." To you it may seem like "toxic thinking",…

AA and other 12 step programs can be positive to some people but they can also be very harmful to others. AA teaches a lot of falsehoods. If AA was actually honest about what it was, I wouldn't dislike it so much.

Plus "just do anything" can lead you to the abusive profit seeking sketchy "rehab" industry, and that's probably going to leave you worse off. I think the worst offenders have been shut down recently though thanks to exposés.

Most people are able to reduce alcohol consumption to less harmful levels on their own. That's not saying you shouldn't seek help if you need it, just you may not need it. Everyone is different. If you wish to reduce your alcohol consumption don't assume you are "powerless" just because AA says you are.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irr...

>The 12 steps are so deeply ingrained in the United States that many people, including doctors and therapists, believe attending meetings, earning one’s sobriety chips, and never taking another sip of alcohol is the only way to get better. Hospitals, outpatient clinics, and rehab centers use the 12 steps as the basis for treatment. But although few people seem to realize it, there are alternatives, including prescription drugs and therapies that aim to help patients learn to drink in moderation. Unlike Alcoholics Anonymous, these methods are based on modern science and have been proved, in randomized, controlled studies, to work. For J.G., it took years of trying to “work the program,” pulling himself back onto the wagon only to fall off again, before he finally realized that Alcoholics Anonymous was not his only, or even his best, hope for recovery. But in a sense, he was lucky: many others never make that discovery at all.

>Whereas AA teaches that alcoholism is a progressive disease that follows an inevitable trajectory, data from a federally funded survey called the National Epidemiological Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions show that nearly one-fifth of those who have had alcohol dependence go on to drink at low-risk levels with no symptoms of abuse. And a recent survey of nearly 140,000 adults by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that nine out of 10 heavy drinkers are not dependent on alcohol and, with the help of a medical professional’s brief intervention, can change unhealthy habits.

>AA truisms have so infiltrated our culture that many people believe heavy drinkers cannot recover before they “hit bottom.” Researchers I’ve talked with say that’s akin to offering antidepressants only to those who have attempted suicide, or prescribing insulin only after a patient has lapsed into a diabetic coma. “You might as well tell a guy who weighs 250 pounds and has untreated hypertension and cholesterol of 300, ‘Don’t exercise, keep eating fast food, and we’ll give you a triple bypass when you have a heart attack,’ ” Mark Willenbring, a psychiatrist in St. Paul and a former director of treatment and recovery research at the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, told me. He threw up his hands. “Absurd.”

>But many in AA and the rehab industry insist the 12 steps are the only answer and frown on using the prescription drugs that have been shown to help people reduce their drinking.

>People with alcohol problems also suffer from higher-than-normal rates of mental-health issues, and research has shown that treating depression and anxiety with medication can reduce drinking. But AA is not equipped to address these issues—it is a support group whose leaders lack professional training—and some meetings are more accepting than others of the idea that members may need therapy and/or medication in addition to the group’s help

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#62

Obviously I can't say anything about my own longevity, but over the past few years my alcohol consumption has decreased to virtually zero and I've never felt better. I was never a big drinker, but I would semi-regularly go out and drink a few pints of beer or have wine with dinner. I never intended to cut down on alcohol, but my lifestyle changed, I stopped going out so much, and the drinking went with it. I would st…

> Obviously I can't say anything about my own longevity, but over the past few years my alcohol consumption has decreased to virtually zero and I've never felt better. I was never a big drinker, but I would semi-regularly go out and drink a few pints of beer or have wine with dinner. I never intended to cut down on alcohol, but my lifestyle changed, I stopped going out so much, and the drinking went with it. I would still drink maybe once a month, but I've realised that it makes me feel bad every time, so I now completely abstain.

Same is happening to me.

And the last time I bought alcohol, I bought a pack of 0% alcohol beer by mistake at the supermarket. I would never do that intentionally, as I consider 0% alcohol beer a ridiculous idea and also never tried it. However, I finished the pack, and the first beer was special. It actually tastes like beer, without alcohol, it's mainly sugar with water.

Won't buy another pack ever again, but it was an interesting experience and opened my eyes about the taste of beers

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#63

Obviously I can't say anything about my own longevity, but over the past few years my alcohol consumption has decreased to virtually zero and I've never felt better. I was never a big drinker, but I would semi-regularly go out and drink a few pints of beer or have wine with dinner. I never intended to cut down on alcohol, but my lifestyle changed, I stopped going out so much, and the drinking went with it. I would st…

If that was the extent of your drinking, I doubt that was the major factor in your improved health. I would look to the things you consumed while drinking, such as rich full-fat restaurant food in big portions, salty carb-heavy fatty snacks and second-hand smoke. Cutting out alcohol completely is certainly not a bad thing health-wise, but I think it was much more significant that you stopped going out so much.

Nah, I still do eat rich full-fat, salty, and carb-heavy food. Trust me, it's the alcohol. The day after drinking used be completely wasted for me. Now every day can be very productive.

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#64

Obviously I can't say anything about my own longevity, but over the past few years my alcohol consumption has decreased to virtually zero and I've never felt better. I was never a big drinker, but I would semi-regularly go out and drink a few pints of beer or have wine with dinner. I never intended to cut down on alcohol, but my lifestyle changed, I stopped going out so much, and the drinking went with it. I would st…

Unless you were getting wasted it's quite unusual for a few drinks to make you feel bad.

Also, there is more and more a decent selection of But then again, maybe the point of drinking together is it provides some kind of bonding effect, being a shared vice. It makes it harder to lie and shows you value others more than your own health (relatively).

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#65
post #46
post #32

Glass of wine in the night is a very bad habit and you don't need a large scale study to prove it. If you have a watch that can track your sleep cycle, you will see that your deep sleep doesn't start until much later if you consuming alcohol before going to sleep. In other words, a glass of wine might make you feel relaxed but it robes you from your deep sleep.

If you have a watch that can track your sleep cycle, you will see that your deep sleep doesn't start until much later if you consuming alcohol before going to sleep. Maybe that's good.

That seems ridiculous but indeed, we shouldn't make assumptions. We have to measure assumed negative effects, like impaired cognition. Or maybe that's good too.

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#66
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I understand that it's difficult to control for various factors when doing large scale studies of health and behavior, but my perception as a layman is that there is some willful ignorance or absence of rigor. I perhaps understand the sentiment behind this, but if this is really what you think then probably you don't really 'understand' how difficult it is to do large scale studies of health and behavior. As a thou…

The 'answer' may be here that it's simply best to acknowledge that we cannot realistically study some, and arguably many , things. I expect your response would be that at least trying to do the best with the resources we have is better than remaining blissfully ignorant. But the problem is that coming to wrong conclusions far more dangerous than simply acknowledging we do not yet have the resources to come to any con…

I mostly agree with this. But part of it is scientific illiteracy on behalf of most people, who want these 100% answers, not grades of evidence and certainty. An observation study is definitely helpful, but should be taken as what it is, an observational study, not truth, which is often how it is reported and understood.

But I don't think that coming to wrong conclusions is necessarily 'far more dangerous'. People who drink 1 drink a night are not likely to have dramatically different outcomes than people who abstain. (perhaps unless it contributes to binge drinking, but science already says that is bad)

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#67

Obviously I can't say anything about my own longevity, but over the past few years my alcohol consumption has decreased to virtually zero and I've never felt better. I was never a big drinker, but I would semi-regularly go out and drink a few pints of beer or have wine with dinner. I never intended to cut down on alcohol, but my lifestyle changed, I stopped going out so much, and the drinking went with it. I would st…

> The interesting thing is how people react to it. For some reason you are expected to provide a reason for why you don't drink. I don't smoke either but nobody asks me why. I've noticed also that it makes people uncomfortable if you're not drinking. When I do go out now I drink diet soft drinks so that I don't get constantly asked why I don't have a drink.

Reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-X2zPMB5dk

I never drank aside from a few sips in past attempts to placate people bothering me about drinking. I used to be more annoyed by people who seem to really want to know why, but I've found that simply being firm about not drinking is usually enough to get people to drop the subject. I don't usually give a reason, as that seems to be an invitation for others to harass you. I also will refuse to even sip an alcoholic beverage for the same reason.

Some people seem to take the fact that you don't drink as personally offensive, as if you are judging others for drinking. But I really don't care that much about how much you drink any more than I care about how much ketchup you put on your fries. That is, I don't care much at all unless you're using obviously too much. The view that non-drinkers are judgmental seems to be caused by a combination of psychological projection and the drinker having mixed feelings about alcohol.

If I had to give a reason, it would be something like this: I never was convinced of any benefit from drinking, but I can see many risks. The main benefit to me is that many drinkers will socially exclude non-drinkers, but I think a better solution is to avoid people who don't like non-drinkers.

The reasons I've heard from people about why they drink or want to encourage me to drink vary a lot. One that comes to mind is "I want you to be happy", which don't find convincing because I am perfectly happy and don't think drinking would improve my happiness. The people who insist that I just haven't tried the right drink are getting tiring. If you didn't like ketchup and I said that you haven't tried the right ketchup and then insisted that you try small amounts of a half dozen ketchups, that would be considered fairly weird. But it happens to non-drinkers.

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there isn’t sufficient funding to pay for non biased scientists who have the understanding of statistics and probability to perform the correct experiments and analysis. And there isn’t sufficient funding for the types of large scale control groups needed for studying health effects on a complex organism such as humans, especially when mechanisms of actions can’t directly be observed.

Economics should not play a role in science. I agree it is hard. But this isnt a choice between hard science and shitty survey based science. I am saying this is a choice between hard science and NOTHING. Do nothing. Don't do lazy work. That's my point.

Yes, I was answering why it’s so hard to do legitimate research. I agree that it would be better if the garbage research didn’t exist at all. No info is better than bad info.

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#69

1. The best evidence that there is no safe amount of alcohol consumption is the Mendelian randomization (MR) by Holmes et al from 2014 [1]. I believe that the more recent paper making such claims is no better than the usual observational studies. But the MR paper is convincing to me. The risks for mild drinking appear to be low enough that I don't abstain, and I am happy to tell my patients about my thought process.…

Thank you very much for that first link. It seems to be severely under-publicised considering the huge amount of exposure that the topic gets.

Do you happen to know if rs1229984 is linked to any particular group that could make this result problematic? I noticed that the paper mentions that "There was also some evidence for a difference in years of education, and, while the size of the effect was small, this requires further investigation." That sounds like a decent-sized red flag.

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#70

1. The best evidence that there is no safe amount of alcohol consumption is the Mendelian randomization (MR) by Holmes et al from 2014 [1]. I believe that the more recent paper making such claims is no better than the usual observational studies. But the MR paper is convincing to me. The risks for mild drinking appear to be low enough that I don't abstain, and I am happy to tell my patients about my thought process.…

Does ASA stand for Alcohol Septal Ablation?
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