Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Let Teenagers Sleep In

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 317 posts

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#161

Post by paulie_a »

wruza wrote: post #151
paulie_a wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half of my last year is dealing with bugs related to dst. It needs to go away completely. It is a stupid and unnecessary concept. The proposition is very simple "we won't be shifting the clock by an hour, deal with it"

If paid, half of your year may be worth having dst, if it turns out to be important. Hope they make their best decision, since it may affect too many things. Btw, did you deal with it or it’s still a mess? Long ago I wrote a library that manages dst, leaps, even ancient calendar changes, for fun. Datetime is hard topic, but still manageable. What problems did you meet, specifically?

No it wasn't worth it. I'd rather work on actual projects instead of fixing undocumented nuances related to poorly implemented systems. Yes I got paid for it, I'd rather not deal with a never ending set of database queries in a legacy system. Specifically one problem was consistently being given incorrect info from a vendor, then incorrect specs and data that would not match with the first. How do you compare a day with 25 vs 24 hours.

Tldr: fuck dst, it has no purpose and should go away.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#162

Post by Aeolun »

IC4RUS wrote: post #150
rerx wrote: post #18

One of the many fascinating facts I learnt from Matthew Walker's "Why We Sleep" is that the biorhythms of teenagers are shifted to later hours compared to those of adults in all human cultures of the globe, even in those rare societies hardly affected by technology. In evolution this was likely beneficial to make it easier for teenagers to socialize among themselves without adult disturbance, which was necessary to d…

This sounds like of a 'just so' story, as evolution is not usually considered to act at the group level, but instead at the individual level: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_selection And some evolutionary biologists, like Dawkins, argues that it really acts on genes rather than the individual. So, I might be missing some of the claim, but I find it unlikely that teenagers would stay up later to be away from adul…

Maybe so. But if it happens in all cultures across the globe (which is verifiable), then there must be ‘some’ cause. Even if we don’t know it.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#164

Post by chillacy »

noobermin wrote: post #137

>Three out of every four students in grades 9 to 12 fail to sleep the minimum of eight hours that the American Academy of Sleep Medicine recommends for their age group Do 3/4 teens fail in life? Do they develop debilitating disorders and such? I guess I've heard for years we need more sleep yet we don't sleep and we continue living. May be certain things like stress and work are troublesome and such but that seems mo…

Low sleep seems to correlate with disorders like diabetes, obesity, and cancer, which are definitely disorders of modernity. It also impairs cognitive performance in lab studies. Going through the book Why We Sleep right now and it’s eye opening for sure.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#165

Post by ttul »

hrasyid wrote: post #152

I'm not sure I like the reasoning in this article. They go to bed later because of FB and other stuff, which makes them not have enough sleep before school. Then it's the school, rather than the FB-ing that has to give way? If they wake up and start school later, what's to say their FB-ing won't shift even later, causing them to sleep even later, and then again we're back where we started?

Teens ain’t on Facebook in my part of the globe. It’s all Instagram and Snapchat. The latest craze is multiparty live video where a couple of teens will broadcast themselves doing goofy stuff while all their friends watch remotely from their devices.

It is a brave new world.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#166

Post by chillacy »

coding123 wrote: post #7

Or you know have them go to bed at 10 instead of let the play video games until 2am.

Or maybe you and I should just go to bed at 7pm to match the circadian rhythm of the elderly? Circadian rhythm changes based on age, that much seems to be biological fact.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#167

Post by ianai »

foldr wrote: post #118
ianai wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re really off about that. Our night vision is actually pretty good, especially if you’ve used it for every night of your life. Fire’s clearly been with us for long enough to be a factor, in addition. I’m against the hypothesis though, if only for the fact that energy levels peak shortly after waking up - “why we sleep” discusses this a little. That book also suggests the variety of sleep patterns exists for evolu…

>Our night vision is actually pretty good It isn't good enough to see what's going on when it's actually pitch black, which it is most of the time at night. > Fire Lighting a fire at night in the place where you're having sex seems like a pretty good way to get discovered. > Having a multitude of waking/restful cycles in a group kept our ancestors protected with a nearly round the clock group of protectors - who ever…

Matthew Walker, PhD in his book "Why We Sleep" discussed sleep cycles and their variances from one person to the next. Specifically, during his discussion of circadian rhythm in chapter 2. From page 22: "As a social species, should we not all be synchronized and therefore awake at the same time to promote maximal human interactions? Perhaps not. As we'll discover later in this book, humans likely evolved to co-sleep as families or even whole tribes, not alone or as couples. Appreciating this evolutionary context, the benefits of such genetically programmed variation in sleep/wake timing preferences can be understood. The night owls in the group would not be going to sleep until one or two a.m., and not waking until nine or ten. [...] Consequently the group as a whole is only collectively vulnerable."

He discussed varying sleep cycles across individuals. Specifically, he suggested society needs to be more inclusive of different sleep patterns and needs. Instead, society rewards people who naturally wake early in the morning at the cost of "night owls". All in the same area of the book.

You're welcome to research and earn your own PhD in neurology and author your own book on sleep patterns, but I'll stick with Dr Walker's work.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#168

Post by devxpy »

lamontcg wrote: post #154

I used to need 9.5 hours of sleep as a teenager and probably had diagnosable delayed sleep phase disorder. Rules made by 55 year old early risers that only need 6 hours of sleep a night who have become school officials are just cruel and unusual punishment to a chunk of teenagers out there. In a better world there could be a class action lawsuit to make this stop--but its still considered okay to promote "early to be…

THANK YOU

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#169

Post by emodendroket »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #158
emodendroket wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That means you have to do some kind of staggering. But the order is always older-younger, although younger kids are naturally awake earlier.

So I looked at the CDC paper that seems to have influenced this article[1], the average start time for middle school is 8:04, and for high school 7:59. Elementary schools weren't sampled in it. A later journal article just sampling Kentucky[2] shows elementary starting at 8:05, middle at 8:00, and high school at 8:0:1. Elementary is also the most likely to start before 8, but their average was raised by ten percent s…

With elementary it's probably a result of doing morning and afternoon classes.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#170

Post by chillacy »

hrasyid wrote: post #152

I'm not sure I like the reasoning in this article. They go to bed later because of FB and other stuff, which makes them not have enough sleep before school. Then it's the school, rather than the FB-ing that has to give way? If they wake up and start school later, what's to say their FB-ing won't shift even later, causing them to sleep even later, and then again we're back where we started?

Because teenagers have delayed melatonin release even in controlled lab conditions: http://www.neurologytimes.com/blog/teenage-circadian-rhythm
Post reply on HN