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Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

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Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#11
post #8

I have been reading for years about the numbers of studies being done (especially in the public health field) that can be whittled down to correlation without any strongly proven causality. Is this an issue with science, or with how the media reports on science? Is it really as bad as it seems? I understand that it's difficult to control for various factors when doing large scale studies of health and behavior, but m…

The incentive structure in "science" is completely fucked, and it's a well-known dirty secret.

Of course there is great research being done. The problem is that the cognitive load of evaluating which research is useful has been shifted to the end "consumers" of that research.

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#12
post #5
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah that’s an obvious one. Having unrelated health problems is a more important confunder (i.e. people with health problems, or old, or mentally ill, are mole likely to not drink).

People with health problems or mentally ill are more likely not to drink? That seems false. Any sources? I found [1] that suggests comorbidity. [1] https://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://...

People with health problems are told by their doctors to stop drinking alcohol.

From TFA:

"An analysis from 2007 by an international group of alcohol epidemiologists and addiction researchers, published in Annals of Epidemiology, notes that “as people progress into late middle and old age, their consumption of alcohol declines in tandem with ill health, frailty, dementia, and/or use of medications.” That decline means that, as people become less well—even if they’re not elderly—they will also tend to stop drinking."

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#13
post #8

I have been reading for years about the numbers of studies being done (especially in the public health field) that can be whittled down to correlation without any strongly proven causality. Is this an issue with science, or with how the media reports on science? Is it really as bad as it seems? I understand that it's difficult to control for various factors when doing large scale studies of health and behavior, but m…

I think it's an issue with studies funded by someone that has an interest in a certain result, and also a media that is happy to publish a story that is nearly written for them.

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#14
post #5
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah that’s an obvious one. Having unrelated health problems is a more important confunder (i.e. people with health problems, or old, or mentally ill, are mole likely to not drink).

People with health problems or mentally ill are more likely not to drink? That seems false. Any sources? I found [1] that suggests comorbidity. [1] https://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://...

Right, I mis-summarized the article. A more accurate summary would be: non-drinkers are more likely to have pre-existing health problems than light-moderate drinkers.

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#17
post #8

I have been reading for years about the numbers of studies being done (especially in the public health field) that can be whittled down to correlation without any strongly proven causality. Is this an issue with science, or with how the media reports on science? Is it really as bad as it seems? I understand that it's difficult to control for various factors when doing large scale studies of health and behavior, but m…

>correlation without any strongly proven causality

How would one really prove causality or does it even matter. When I think of science, I try to think of it like how I think of physics, where we create a model that best describes the evidence but which doesn't have any guarantee of being how things really work.

Take Newtonian gravity. It is a pretty good model that describes a lot of basic interactions. Given a state at a given moment in time, it lets us determine things going forward or backwards (though for more complex physics, backwards stops working because of assumptions and estimates in the model). But at the same time, it is wrong. More complex physics shows there is a model that fits even more experimental data which contradicts what we thought was happening in the Newtonian model. Mass doesn't attract mass. Mass bends space time and impacts objects traveling through it in such a way that it appears mass attracts mass (though even this may end up being wrong and something else entirely is at play).

So, is it really important to describe why a ball falls to the ground when I release it, or is it good enough to have a system that describes the interactions enough that I can apply it to problems? If I solve a problem, say what angle and what speed I need to throw a ball to get over fence, does it really matter if I think the ball falls back to earth because mass attracts mass or because mass bends spacetime? Or is it just important for my equations to be accurate enough that any error is less than what is innate in applying the solution to real life (measuring the exact height of the fence, throwing at an exact angle).

What does applying a similar mind set in something dealing with vastly more complicated systems, such as in medicine, looks like?

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#18
because more people are becoming alcoholics and the penalties for a DWI are getting harsher. bottom line is... if you think you have a problem, you already have a problem. Get help and get help now before you hurt someone (you don't want this on your conscience... trust me). Go to AA, NA, a therapist, a doctor, rehab, a detox, doesn't matter, open up and tell someone you have a problem and get the help you need before you destroy your life or someone elses.

https://www.aa.org/

https://www.na.org/

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#19
post #8

I have been reading for years about the numbers of studies being done (especially in the public health field) that can be whittled down to correlation without any strongly proven causality. Is this an issue with science, or with how the media reports on science? Is it really as bad as it seems? I understand that it's difficult to control for various factors when doing large scale studies of health and behavior, but m…

Observational studies can be incredibly hard to do in a way where you can infer causality. But most of the data you can get your hands on are observational.

Does cataract surgery reduce mortality in older women? It sure looked like it, until it was recognized that the study suffered from a concept called "immortal time bias" [1]. Now the reverse "seems" to be true. (Unhelpfully, it's easy to make an "explanation" for either case. Surgery lowers mortality? Of course! Better vision keeps you safe. Surgery increases mortality? Of course! Failing vision is associated with other failing organs, and surgery itself poses risks.)

In cardiology, we like to refer to immortal time bias as the "cheetos" effect. An example: Let's look at people who had an event (heart attack) and try to estimate the benefit of a procedure done afterward (literally eating a bag of cheetos within 60 days after the heart attack). You will find that eating a bag of cheetos confers increased survival compared to not eating a bag of cheetos. The reason for this is that in order to have eaten the bag of cheetos, you necessarily lived long enough to eat the cheetos. If you died first, you count toward the non-cheetos group. So stacking things up, it will look like cheetos keeps you alive longer. (The solution to this problem is not to count the time before eating cheetos towards your survival time. If you do this with literal cheetos, which don't have a survival effect, then you will correctly see no difference between groups.)

This is just one of the numerous biases that exist and can be difficult to account for. In my opinion, this stuff is just hard. If you are interested, Judea Pearl is developing tools for causal inference [2].

1 = https://retractionwatch.com/2018/08/28/a-high-profile-paper-...

2 = http://bayes.cs.ucla.edu/jp_home.html

Re: Remember when a glass of wine a day was good for you?

#20
post #8

I have been reading for years about the numbers of studies being done (especially in the public health field) that can be whittled down to correlation without any strongly proven causality. Is this an issue with science, or with how the media reports on science? Is it really as bad as it seems? I understand that it's difficult to control for various factors when doing large scale studies of health and behavior, but m…

I recommend reading Judea Pearl's _The Book Of Why_, which details why historically science has been restricted to correlational observations, and how causal calculus can shed light on causality.
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