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Brain Drain Within the EU?

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Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#121

Post by ciguy »

enlightenedfool wrote: post #77
ciguy wrote: post #18

I'm living in Italy at the moment, and I can watch the brain drain happening in real time. Every single university student I know here is looking to go to the UK or Germany when they graduate, almost without exception. I can't blame them at all, taxes are excessive and bureaucracy is excruciating here. Finding even a temporary job usually requires family connections, so the dumbest people with connections end up as m…

"dumbest people with connections end up as managers while the smartest get put into lower positions" That's the case everywhere, but the other side of the argument is that the managers are smart to use those connections for their careers.

The difference in Italy is that the managers were born into those connections, they didn't make them on their own. And the system incentivises this to an alarming extent.

In other countries, you can actually network and make a name for yourself, get promoted for hard work etc.... That doesn't really happen in Italy, the hard worker gets passed over for the lazy son who knows nothing about the business.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#122

Post by louwrentius »

ciguy wrote: post #44
arximboldi wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Spaniard living in Germany... part of that very same problem. Anyways, "taxes and bureaucracy" is not the problem of the of the european south. In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany. The problems are more complex and historical. The EU economic crisis have been abused by right-wingers to argue that we have a too heavy social system. In fact, the demolition of the social system in the so…

Tax rates on middle income earners (15k to 30k euros annually) are higher in Italy, at least based on my limited research. If you have data to back up your claim that they are higher in Germany I'd love to see it. Either way that's not actually the core of the issue. In Germany, you get decent public transportation, great education and healthcare for your tax money. In Italy these things range from tolerable but inef…

Very interesting, it confirms what I suspected. A negative spiral caused by a fundamentally broken culture that Italy is unable to break away from.

It's all about stuffing your pockets and those of your family. Because nobody can be trusted. You don't build for the future. You don't care about that now.

It seems that there is a fundamental lack of trust amongst Italians. And if there's no trust, you can't build on each other and focus on the long-term. Because you have to spend tons of time watching your back and taking care of yourself.

How will you fucking turn around such a culture?

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#123

Post by ciguy »

gerdesj wrote: post #74
ciguy wrote: post #18

I'm living in Italy at the moment, and I can watch the brain drain happening in real time. Every single university student I know here is looking to go to the UK or Germany when they graduate, almost without exception. I can't blame them at all, taxes are excessive and bureaucracy is excruciating here. Finding even a temporary job usually requires family connections, so the dumbest people with connections end up as m…

I'm living in Italy at the moment, and I can watch the brain drain happening in real time. Every single university student I know here is looking to go to the UK or Germany when they graduate, almost without exception. If you allow your gaze to de-focus slightly, you could think of Italy as contributing towards the EU as a whole. If it helps, just down the road from me is a helicopter manufacturer that used to be kno…

You're hilariously off the mark. I'm not from Italy, and I live here by choice because my money comes from businesses I built elsewhere. I didn't grow up here and have no ties to Italy at all except distant ancestry, so I'm just reporting what I see on the ground.

If you weren't so quick to dismiss me as a "nipper" perhaps we could have an intelligent conversation. But given the lack of intelligence in your reply I'm not going to try.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#124

Post by eloisant »

Xixi wrote: post #84
ciguy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax rates on middle income earners (15k to 30k euros annually) are higher in Italy, at least based on my limited research. If you have data to back up your claim that they are higher in Germany I'd love to see it. Either way that's not actually the core of the issue. In Germany, you get decent public transportation, great education and healthcare for your tax money. In Italy these things range from tolerable but inef…

It can be hard to compare actual tax rates as you have to also account for all the payroll taxes. For instance in France for a Software Engineer you would expect about 40~45% payroll taxes [1], and you will still pay income taxes (somewhere between 20% and 40%) on what remains [2]. They go towards different budgets (Social Security and State), so it makes sense that they are collected separately. I don't know how it…

This will become easier to compare as income tax will soon be taken directly from the payroll like most other countries.

However it's important to note that many people don't actually pay that much income tax in France, or at least nowhere near the 20% to 40% number you're giving.

If you're married it depends on your spouse revenue, whether you have kids or not (especially between 0 an 3 yo because you get a tax credit on daycare, etc...)

I think the biggest difference between a Software Engineer in France and UK or Germany is not the taxes, but that the gross salary would usually be much lower in France.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#125

Post by ciguy »

louwrentius wrote: post #122
ciguy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax rates on middle income earners (15k to 30k euros annually) are higher in Italy, at least based on my limited research. If you have data to back up your claim that they are higher in Germany I'd love to see it. Either way that's not actually the core of the issue. In Germany, you get decent public transportation, great education and healthcare for your tax money. In Italy these things range from tolerable but inef…

Very interesting, it confirms what I suspected. A negative spiral caused by a fundamentally broken culture that Italy is unable to break away from. It's all about stuffing your pockets and those of your family. Because nobody can be trusted. You don't build for the future. You don't care about that now. It seems that there is a fundamental lack of trust amongst Italians. And if there's no trust, you can't build on ea…

I have no idea. Normally younger people could be a catalyst for change, but they are all leaving. I think the effects of this are going to reverberate in Italy for generations as they fall further and further behind.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#126

Post by [deleted] »

JPLeRouzic wrote: post #111
programLyrique wrote: post #9

It would be interesting to see the percentages for scientists and researchers independently. For France, for instance, researchers' wages are not very high. A lecturer typically starts with about 2115 euros per month before taxes typically for instance. On the contrary, I think that the salary of engineers is competitive with the ones in the UK and Germany.

> A lecturer typically starts with about 2115 euros per month Indeed this a low wage considering the cost of life, but two third of French earn less than that [0]. A few days ago a statistic about middle class in France was considering 1200 euros as representative of French middle class, even if this is roughly the legal minimum wage. [0] https://www.inegalites.fr/Salaire-etes-vous-riche-ou-pauvre

[deleted]

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#127

Post by mkio »

woodpanel wrote: post #103
Xixi wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be hard to compare actual tax rates as you have to also account for all the payroll taxes. For instance in France for a Software Engineer you would expect about 40~45% payroll taxes [1], and you will still pay income taxes (somewhere between 20% and 40%) on what remains [2]. They go towards different budgets (Social Security and State), so it makes sense that they are collected separately. I don't know how it…

(fictional, simplified) Example for a Software Engineer based in Germany [1]: Gross income: 100.000 EUR / year [2] ------------------------- TAXES - Income tax (28.600 EUR) - "solidarity premium" (2.300 EUR) - church tax (1.600 € - cumpolsory until you leave the curch) SOCIAL SECURITY (compulsory) - unemployed insurance (1.200 EUR) - pension insurance (7.300 EUR) - health insurance (4.500 EUR) - long term care (800 E…

100k is completely unrealistic for a German software engineer, especially after only a couple of years.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#128

Post by NicoJuicy »

ciguy wrote: post #18

I'm living in Italy at the moment, and I can watch the brain drain happening in real time. Every single university student I know here is looking to go to the UK or Germany when they graduate, almost without exception. I can't blame them at all, taxes are excessive and bureaucracy is excruciating here. Finding even a temporary job usually requires family connections, so the dumbest people with connections end up as m…

Is it really about taxes? Most taxes are in Belgium where I live and I don't think there's a brain drain

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#129

Post by kabes »

NicoJuicy wrote: post #128
ciguy wrote: post #18

I'm living in Italy at the moment, and I can watch the brain drain happening in real time. Every single university student I know here is looking to go to the UK or Germany when they graduate, almost without exception. I can't blame them at all, taxes are excessive and bureaucracy is excruciating here. Finding even a temporary job usually requires family connections, so the dumbest people with connections end up as m…

Is it really about taxes? Most taxes are in Belgium where I live and I don't think there's a brain drain

Quite the opposite, the current firm I work at in Belgium (Barco) is able to attract quite a lot of engineers from other EU countries, who obviously don't come to Belgium for taxation benefits. I think higher salary is the single most important factor.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#130

Post by borroka »

borroka wrote: post #4

The article is not clear; I did not look at the raw data, but the expectation of parity between population percent and percent of scientists/engineers is a hypothesis itself. It is well known that Italy produced far fewer people with advanced degree per capita than many other EU countries.

Interesting downvote
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