Google Suppresses Memo Revealing Plans to Closely Track Search Users in China • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Suppresses Memo Revealing Plans to Closely Track Search Users in China

#241

Post by jancsika » Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 1:55 AM UTC

AndyNemmity wrote: post #147

tomlu wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The suggestion from the link is that some people involved didn't fully understand what they were working on. And obviously they weren't able to keep word spreading in this case. But obviously a number of people must have known. I don't know how they approach and recruit these people, it's above my paygrade.

You just get asked to work on project blah. And you're like okay, what do I do? Figure out this system for them, okay. And you work and focus on the technical details. I mean, I really appreciate all of you who seem to dig in and dive into the what and why of every system you work on, but I often just do work. I get tunnel vision and do the things I have to do. I don't really care about much outside of that spectrum…

Oh, I do that too-- especially those times I have to drill down several layers deep into the ugly undocumented guts of an abstraction some other developer left knots in.

But somehow I never climb back out to find the bug I just fixed is part of a giant censorship machine.

Are you saying there is a greater than zero chance that you've accidentally done work on a similarly unethical system?

Re: Google Suppresses Memo Revealing Plans to Closely Track Search Users in China

#242

Post by gukov » Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 2:05 AM UTC

snr wrote: post #206

quickben wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I also think that there is an anti-Google bias on hacker news". Nah mate. When a company isn't paying me, I am unrestrictedly free to be objective. The problem, with companies (and with mafia, etc) starts once you take the money. So, from that perspective, what you read from most of us, is more objective than anything you read on your internal mailing lists. We, unlike your HR, don't care about morale, perception an…

"The problem, with companies (and with mafia, etc) starts once you take the money." So true!

The problem is then compounded by stock options.

Re: Google Suppresses Memo Revealing Plans to Closely Track Search Users in China

#243

Post by wilsonnb3 » Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 2:16 AM UTC

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #76

devoply wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fact of the matter is that there is a Chinese internet and a US internet. Going forward there will be a Chinese internet, that some authoritarian countries will adopt that are a part of the Chinese sphere of influence. American companies, and the American government through them want a foothold on that internet. This is the only way for them to do so. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/20/eric-schmidt-ex-google-ceo-p...

This is cognitive dissonance. You can create rationalizations for the worst of actions, and that's exactly what this is. The motivation is simply money and growth. China is a huge market that may, in the future, become the single most lucrative market in the world. They want in on this and are willing to toss any values they may have once held to pursue the profit and power potential of this market.

Perhaps they are playing the long game. Actions against their values taken now will give them more power to act in line with their values in the future.

Re: Google Suppresses Memo Revealing Plans to Closely Track Search Users in China

#244

Post by brainfog » Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 2:42 AM UTC

collias wrote: post #171

bduerst wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Damore has confirmed to multiple outlets that he was terminated for “perpetuating gender stereotypes.” https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/8/8/16106728/google-fire...

Ok thanks, I think I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you meant that he went on record saying something like "I'm perpetuating gender stereotypes". Instead, it looks like he's just confirmed that Google thought he was perpetuating gender stereotypes, and that's what he was fired for, which is no surprise.

I mean, he did go on record saying "I'm perpetuating gender stereotypes" by virtue of writing that memo.

Re: Google Suppresses Memo Revealing Plans to Closely Track Search Users in China

#245

Post by taysic » Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 2:48 AM UTC

ehsankia wrote: post #195

lph wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that this appeasement will make Google a contender in China is blazingly ignorant of Chinese politics. No foreign company will ever be allowed to gain significant market share; it would be seen as a national security threat. The only way for Google would be to forge an equal partnership with a Chinese tech giant---Tencent, Alibaba, Huawei, or maybe one of the two dominant cell carriers. Google is selling out…

Ok, they will never be as huge as local companies, but what's the downside to trying? Google being there doesn't make chinese access to internet any worse. If anything, their government would have to pump in more money into the local companies to stop Google from gaining a foothold, which would be a positive for their citizens.

Wouldn't that money be funded by the citizens and potentially be a waste of resources, duplicating viable products?

Re: Google Suppresses Memo Revealing Plans to Closely Track Search Users in China

#246

Post by flyGuyOnTheSly » Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 2:53 AM UTC

>Emails demanding deletion of the memo contained “pixel trackers” that notified human resource managers when their messages had been read, recipients determined.

The surveillants are becoming so paranoid that they are now surveilling themselves.

Re: Google Suppresses Memo Revealing Plans to Closely Track Search Users in China

#247

Post by SuperNinKenDo » Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 3:09 AM UTC

echevil wrote: post #232

bduerst wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they didn't comply with subpoenas, people would be complaining that Google thought it was above the law.

It does seem there’s little difference from what they’re trying to do in China then.

There's a massive difference. Complying with subpoenas is not the same as giving the government on-tap access to all data at their leisure. And for all the US's problems, the rule of law and respect for the rights of citizen's and responsibilities of the state toward them in the administration of justice is leaps and bounds better and more transparent in the United States.

Re: Google Suppresses Memo Revealing Plans to Closely Track Search Users in China

#248

Post by oh_sigh » Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 3:28 AM UTC

JoshMnem wrote: post #34

> "The Dragonfly memo reveals that a prototype of the censored search engine was being developed as an app for both Android and iOS devices, and would force users to sign in so they could use the service. The memo confirms, as The Intercept first reported last week, that users’ searches would be associated with their personal phone number. The memo adds that Chinese users’ movements would also be stored, along with t…

A more appropriate direction would be "trust Google as much as you trust the government of the area you're in"

Google has clearly showed that they will kowtow to whatever the local law is. As far as I can tell they do this as a last option though, and not just because they don't believe in certain ideas of privacy.

Re: Google Suppresses Memo Revealing Plans to Closely Track Search Users in China

#249

Post by netheril96 » Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 3:38 AM UTC

whatever1 wrote: post #77

Aunche wrote: post #72

All this outrage about about Google wanting to censor search in China is even less productive than men being angry at women having abortions. At least with abortions, men can claim to speak for the fetus. Even if Google expands makes a censored search engine for China, at worst it maintains the status quo. I'm sure you could come up with a philosophical argument to why it's bad, but it definitely has no weight over m…

Sure why not provide the best tracking technologies to the worst regimes. I would also go even further and provide them services for the development of nuclear arsenal. Imagine all of these jobs that will be created in the US.

I am sure China has more experience building tracking technologies. They are not high tech at all, unlike nuclear arsenals.

Re: Google Suppresses Memo Revealing Plans to Closely Track Search Users in China

#250

Post by justtopost » Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 3:39 AM UTC

wilsonnb3 wrote: post #243

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is cognitive dissonance. You can create rationalizations for the worst of actions, and that's exactly what this is. The motivation is simply money and growth. China is a huge market that may, in the future, become the single most lucrative market in the world. They want in on this and are willing to toss any values they may have once held to pursue the profit and power potential of this market.

Perhaps they are playing the long game. Actions against their values taken now will give them more power to act in line with their values in the future.

That logic is so strained my head hurts.