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Google Suppresses Memo Revealing Plans to Closely Track Search Users in China

theintercept.com

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Re: Google Suppresses Memo Revealing Plans to Closely Track Search Users in China

#211

Post by mcny »

fartcannon wrote: post #196
blacksmith_tb wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue MS has become less diabolical as they've become more competent (VS Code, e.g.). Google is more complex, they are certainly looking more diabolical, not quite sure about the more competent - I suppose it only matters that they are competent enough to be dangerous.

I'd argue that Microsoft is much worse, what with their utter ubiquity in corporate environments, linkedin, github and win home users. Google ruined cell phones and Microsoft ruined personal computing.

The problem is it is often difficult to decide where incompetence ends and where malicious begins. Microsoft Edge or at least EdgeHTML has a stated goal of being 100% compatible with Google Chrome. As you might guess, it isn't even close. Why? There are far too many competent people at Microsoft to say "never attribute to malice what can be described by incompetence". This isn't the kind of incompetence at Equifax.

Re: Google Suppresses Memo Revealing Plans to Closely Track Search Users in China

#212

Post by JoshMnem »

DenisM wrote: post #165
JoshMnem wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've tried it multiple times and logging into a Google website automatically logs you into the browser itself (not just the website). Trying to clear cookies now doesn't clear Google's cookies either. Chrome 69.

Not for me it doesn't. 69 on Mac OS.

To reproduce:

- log out of Google Chrome

- clear all cookies (requires digging deep into the settings or using devtools, otherwise Google's cookies will remain)

- restart the browser

- make sure that your picture is not displayed in the browser itself or in the browser settings and that you aren't in incognito mode

- visit the Gmail website and log in

- your picture will now be displayed in the browser software itself (not just Google websites) and in the browser settings

- clearing cookies (ctrl-shift-del on Linux) will not log you out of Google websites or the browser

Re: Google Suppresses Memo Revealing Plans to Closely Track Search Users in China

#213

Post by zachberger »

snr wrote: post #201
JoshMnem wrote: post #34

> "The Dragonfly memo reveals that a prototype of the censored search engine was being developed as an app for both Android and iOS devices, and would force users to sign in so they could use the service. The memo confirms, as The Intercept first reported last week, that users’ searches would be associated with their personal phone number. The memo adds that Chinese users’ movements would also be stored, along with t…

>"The new version of Chrome signs you into the browser even if you don't want to sign into the software itself" Damn. I just realized that. Signing out of browser signs you out of GMail. And signing into GMail signs you into the browser. Went to download Edge but turns out it's not on Win Server. MSFT really needs to get its act together.

Out of curiosity why are you using a web browser on a server?

Re: Google Suppresses Memo Revealing Plans to Closely Track Search Users in China

#214

Post by IBM »

cromwellian wrote: post #203
IBM wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not according to Apple [1]: >Apple says the joint venture does not mean that China has any kind of “backdoor” into user data and that Apple alone – not its Chinese partner – will control the encryption keys. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insigh...

China goes so far as to require Android users to install a surveillance app in some provinces ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingwang_Weishi ) so you think the Chinese government would really allow the sale of unbreakable end to end encryption domestically just because it's Apple? What would be the point then, as anyone wanting to avoid Chinese surveillance could just buy an iPhone. They wouldn't go through huge, im…

>so you think the Chinese government would really allow the sale of unbreakable end to end encryption domestically just because it's Apple?

Yes. Apple has even said this in court filings during the FBI legal fight [1]:

>Finally, the government attempts to disclaim the obvious international implications of its demand, asserting that any pressure to hand over the same software to foreign agents “flows from [Apple’s] decision to do business in foreign countries . . . .” Opp. 26. Contrary to the government’s misleading statistics (Opp. 26), which had to do with lawful process and did not compel the creation of software that undermines the security of its users, Apple has never built a back door of any kind into iOS, or otherwise made data stored on the iPhone or in iCloud more technically accessible to any country’s government. See Dkt. 16-28 [Apple Inc., Privacy, Gov’t Info. Requests]; Federighi Decl. ¶¶ 6–7. The government is wrong in asserting that Apple made “special accommodations” for China (Opp. 26), as Apple uses the same security protocols everywhere in the world and follows the same standards for responding to law enforcement requests. See Federighi Decl. ¶ 5.

and Craig Federighi's declaration [2]:

>5. Apple uses the same security protocols everywhere in the world.

>6. Apple has never made user data, whether stored on the iPhone or in iCloud, more technologically accessible to any country's government. We believe any such access is too dangerous to allow. Apple has also not provided any government with its proprietary iOS source code. While governmental agencies in various countries, including the United States, perform regulatory reviews of new iPhone releases, all that Apple provides in those circumstances is an unmodified iPhone device.

>7. It is my understanding that Apple has never worked with any government agency from any country to create a "backdoor" in any of our products and services.

>I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the United States of America that the foregoing is true and correct.

Apple has leverage in China because they indirectly employ millions of people.

>No, Apple obviously made a deal as they are totally dependent on China for manufacturing their phone as well, they have no leverage. The difference is, Apple's culture of secrecy seems to prevent their employees from leaking dissent externally, so whatever they did, the details aren't public.

Lol. I'm sure Federighi perjured himself because the Apple Cult is just that strong.

[1] https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2762131/C-D-Cal-1...

[2] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2762118-Federighi-De...

Re: Google Suppresses Memo Revealing Plans to Closely Track Search Users in China

#215

Post by deegles »

blacksmith_tb wrote: post #163
apostacy wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am so saddened by how much we trust Google. I wish we regarded Google software with more suspicion. Would people have been nearly as upset if it had been Google that acquired GitHub? I miss the days of being suspicious of Microsoft. But Microsoft isn't nearly as diabolical as Google, nor are they as competent.

I'd argue MS has become less diabolical as they've become more competent (VS Code, e.g.). Google is more complex, they are certainly looking more diabolical, not quite sure about the more competent - I suppose it only matters that they are competent enough to be dangerous.

That's because Microsoft's incentives are more aligned with ours. Better, more user-centric software == better outcomes for users, more Microsoft usage/profits.

Google, on the other hand, is fundamentally incentivized to sell ads, which requires collecting data. The more data they collect, the more money they make. As the saying goes, we are the product. No amount of hand-wringing or shaming is going to change that fundamental fact.

I think that in 100 years we're going to look back on how personal data is used the way we look at barbaric medical practices of the Dark Ages. People in general just didn't know or expect better.

Re: Google Suppresses Memo Revealing Plans to Closely Track Search Users in China

#216

Post by UnFleshedOne »

echevil wrote: post #93
nradov wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you certain that's the only way for them to do so? I suspect that smart people could find effective technical means to undermine and circumvent the Great Firewall of China.

It’s not that hard to circumvent actually. Also in major tech companies in China, employees can just use company network to access websites blocked by the firewall. But if you provide that as a service to general public, it’d get shutdown when it get popular

I'm sure hey are actively working to solve that. Some details here are disturbing.

https://www.hrw.org/report/2018/09/09/eradicating-ideologica...

Re: Google Suppresses Memo Revealing Plans to Closely Track Search Users in China

#217

Post by koolba »

snr wrote: post #201
JoshMnem wrote: post #34

> "The Dragonfly memo reveals that a prototype of the censored search engine was being developed as an app for both Android and iOS devices, and would force users to sign in so they could use the service. The memo confirms, as The Intercept first reported last week, that users’ searches would be associated with their personal phone number. The memo adds that Chinese users’ movements would also be stored, along with t…

>"The new version of Chrome signs you into the browser even if you don't want to sign into the software itself" Damn. I just realized that. Signing out of browser signs you out of GMail. And signing into GMail signs you into the browser. Went to download Edge but turns out it's not on Win Server. MSFT really needs to get its act together.

Why not Firefox?

Re: Google Suppresses Memo Revealing Plans to Closely Track Search Users in China

#218

Post by JoshMnem »

jbigelow76 wrote: post #126
JoshMnem wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if you are defending their abuse of users or just stating the reasons why they do it.

The reasons as to why they do it defend the reasons as to how they do it, the end justifies the means.

I'm not sure what you're saying. If you are walking down a quiet street at night, and a person with bad intentions needs some money, then it "makes sense" for them to beat you up and take your wallet and phone. They needed some money, so the mugger's behavior is not unexpected, and their end justified their means. That doesn't say anything about whether it's right or not, or whether people should do something to prevent muggings or not.

Re: Google Suppresses Memo Revealing Plans to Closely Track Search Users in China

#219

Post by bduerst »

IBM wrote: post #214
cromwellian wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China goes so far as to require Android users to install a surveillance app in some provinces ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingwang_Weishi ) so you think the Chinese government would really allow the sale of unbreakable end to end encryption domestically just because it's Apple? What would be the point then, as anyone wanting to avoid Chinese surveillance could just buy an iPhone. They wouldn't go through huge, im…

>so you think the Chinese government would really allow the sale of unbreakable end to end encryption domestically just because it's Apple? Yes. Apple has even said this in court filings during the FBI legal fight [1]: >Finally, the government attempts to disclaim the obvious international implications of its demand, asserting that any pressure to hand over the same software to foreign agents “flows from [Apple’s] de…

The FBI is a US Government Agency, not China.

And even then, the declaration you quote (made in a US Court case referring to the FBI) was made two years before Apple gave the keys over to China.

Apple has deleted VPN apps from the Chinese store at the request of the Chinese government. They also added a clause to their TOS that allows the state-owned data company to access all user data. When they rolled this out and gave the keys to China, they only gave their users the option to delete their account, not opt out.

I'm sorry to be the one to have to break this to you but Apple is acquiescing with the Chinese government surveillance demands.

Re: Google Suppresses Memo Revealing Plans to Closely Track Search Users in China

#220

Post by kart23 »

bduerst wrote: post #101
echevil wrote: post #96

There are a lot more they can track than the search history. Google maps app has a timeline feature that tracks every place I go :)

You can turn that off here, FYI: https://myaccount.google.com/u/1/activitycontrols

I've turned it off, but I found out that it removes a very useful feature: I can no longer set a home or work address. Why is this? You could've easily just stored those two addresses and not track everything else. They are clearly incentivizing the user to turn on activity tracking. Now instead of just typing in 'home', I have to input the entire address.
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