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Whatever Happened to the Semantic Web?

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Re: Whatever Happened to the Semantic Web?

#182
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Third, you can't force people to use the correct semantics. They'll use them wrong on purpose for fun and profit. Mark some disturbing content as wholesome, mark it as whatever is popular at the moment to get it in front of more eyeballs, mark it as something only tangentially related in the hope there's a cross over of market, mark it wrong because they don't actually know better.

I don’t really understand this argument, because there already are lies published on the internet. What difference does it make if those lies are published in a standardized machine readable format or not?

What's the point of having the marks at all if they are not actually correct?

Re: Whatever Happened to the Semantic Web?

#183
post #41

What happened is that the technology spawned by the Semantic Web "fad" is now absolutely everywhere but it looks and works nothing like how people thought it would. Freebase, after being bought by Google became the foundation of the Google Knowledge Graph (aka "things not links"). This kicked off an arms race between all the major search providers to build the largest and most complete knowledge graphs (or at least k…

The problem with all this is that Google, Facebook, Linkedin et al are private companies, so their knowledge graphs are, well, theirs . The idea with the semantic web was that it would be open and it would belong to its users, not to some cabal of giant corporations that would use it to control the internets. That notion of openness and co-authorship of the knowledge on the web is now as dead as the parrot in the Pyt…

IIRC, Common Crawl exposes the semantic data from the sites they crawl. One could build their own knowledge graph (or at least bootstrap one) from that and other available data sources (DBPedia, WikiData etc.)

Re: Whatever Happened to the Semantic Web?

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's why HTML failed as descriptive language I think HTML and the web failed in general. Modern HTML is really nothing more than div tags everywhere, with a handful of span tags. We went from abusing tables to abusing the entire document. We, in effect, eliminated all semantic meaning from a document by making everything generic tag soup. The DOM + JS has largely supplanted HTML as the source of a web page. Espec…

I've been recently wondering if there's another, better way. The big usability win of the web is that you can run applications without installing anything. Is there a way we could build a new platform that would get us the advantages of the web without all the awful cruft? I'm imagining starting with webassembly for sandboxing. We can then expose through to webassembly a useful set of API primitives from the underlyi…

The original usability win of the web was that anyone could put up some text with pictures and links and anyone else could see it. It was proto-Facebook. I think of the evolution of the web as a sequence of technologically trivial but socially innovative changes in format: from static pages to timestamped blog posts, aggregating multiple blogs in a feed, allowing comments and so on. That's the vision laid out in Clay Shirky's writings about social software, as true today as ever before. And unlike the "semantic web", that vision naturally leads to a wealth of semantic information (like friend graphs) which is tremendously useful.

Hopefully that explains why "API primitives exposed to webassembly" feels to me like thinking about the web from the wrong end. The social end is what makes the web tick. It could be built with tinkertoys for all I care.

Re: Whatever Happened to the Semantic Web?

#185
This I Know Is True:

1. There are few Internet historians. It is difficult and thankless work that doesn't pay well. And too much of the information is lost to history, or can protested by gain-saying, even the true bits.

2. The first browser, Silversmith, was released in 1987. [http://www.linfo.org/browser.html] (thanks BELUG). It worked in English and grew out of my work on the Association of American Publisher's Electronic Manuscript project, the first U.S. electronic publishing project using tags outside of IBM's product offerings. At the time I had been on the Internet since 1972 and I was tired of typing 128.24.67.xxx. (There was a phone book of IP addresses at the time and I was listed in it for work I was doing on satellite image processing on Illiac.)

3. The second browser, a version of Silversmith, was designed for Old Norse for a researcher and it used Norse runes for the display; the controls were in Roman characters.

4. The third browser, a version of Silversmith, was a semantic browser for a U.S. military application. It was successful as far as I know.

5. The fourth browser, Erwise, [http://www.osnews.com/story/21076/The_World_s_First_Graphica...] came about after I gave a paper on Silversmith in Gmunden, Austria in 1988. Erwise worked in the Finnish language. I understand that TimBL looked at it before developing the W3c browser but decided against using it because the comments were in Finnish.

6. I have seen various dates for the browsers from TimBL and MarcA, but they were at least a few years after Silversmith. We can call them the 5th and 6th, but I'm not sure of the ordering. Both of these browsers were based on the earlier AAP Book tag set.

7. Some of my work on Silversmith grew out of Ted Nelson's work on the Alexandria (Xanadu) project. Much of his work has still not been implemented, but that may soon change.

8. Ted developed hypertext controls for printed documents. In that approach when you finished reading a child section a return page number was there to show you where you left off.

9. I developed the first eHypertext system for networks that would link you back to your source document that you came from by pressing the ESC key. In Silversmith you could link between text, images, sound and semantic information.

10. Silversmith is a scalable system. Please observe that just because you don't know how that is done, does not mean it cannot be done. That was what was told me about browsing and searching earlier also.

11. At the time Silversmith was developed, it was understood that VC's would not talk to you without you having a working product. Once I had it working, I found that VC's would still not talk to you. I talked with about a dozen Boston VC's. They would not even sit for a demonstration. I did a demonstration for the ACM in 2007 (thanks PeterG). That is the nature of tools and the bane of toolsmiths, no one wants to pay for tools. I have a recurring nightmare of the yokel who returned his anvil to the smithy saying, "It doesn't work. I can't use it to make beautiful horseshoes like Kevin does, and he has the same anvil. There's something wrong with this one." With Silversmith I lost a competition among 80 vendors for a search application, when none of the others even had an application. One competitor even called me and demanded all my specs and internal design documents. That is largely why you will not find any published information on Silversmith.

12. I can't tell you how many times I have been schooled on programming languages. "You should program that using ThinkC/ObjectiveC/SmallTalk/the X-System." "You need to switch to Ruby-On-Rails/Perl/Python/Awk, that's the way to do it." People, it's not the language, it's the data structures and the code that is important. And, enough with "speed is important." We are all using supercomputers and they will never be fast enough.

13. Silversmith predated the W3c work by several years, that is why I prefer to use the term "semantic web" (lower case) to distinguish it from the W3c term. I discussed the term "web" with Ted and he agreed that was in use earlier before the WWW.

14. Monitizing a tool is an interesting discussion. No one wants to pay $1 every time they pick up a hammer. But for a cabinetmaker, his/her primary tool is the table saw. This means that they are more than willing to pay on a regular basis for maintenance. They must, it is their livelihood, and the manufacturer is going to make money on that maintenance. He does not expect to be able to charge the cabinetmaker a portion of his sales. That is not how that market works. To me, even razor and blades are not fully monitized if you sharpen your own blades.

15. Semantic work is "path dependent" work. Once you start down a certain path it becomes very difficult to retrace your steps. I used to be critical of academics who "sold out" to the W3c vision, but now I realize that for the most part they are trying to provide what the industry wants and uses.

16. Work on Silversmith continues and I'm pleased to say that it is progressing well. The next version will assist in finding and using knowledge in a more conceptual way.

Re: Whatever Happened to the Semantic Web?

#186

With regard to the first example, lowering volume of playing media when you get a phone call, I had that set up on my Nokia N900 a decade ago (Dbus on the N900 would trigger a script to ssh into my computer and pause mpd). Naturally this was a nerdy thing and not something accessible for the general public, but I mention it here just to encourage my fellow nerds to realize how much power they might already have with…

OSM is open, but it is still centralized. It doesn't come to your webpage and get the information about your hours from you (as far as I can tell)

OSM is a wiki, anyone can edit things, and there's wiki-like community review. So the owner of a business can add the details if they want, or someone walking past and looking at a sign can.

Re: Whatever Happened to the Semantic Web?

#187
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OSM is open, but it is still centralized. It doesn't come to your webpage and get the information about your hours from you (as far as I can tell)

OSM is a wiki, anyone can edit things, and there's wiki-like community review. So the owner of a business can add the details if they want, or someone walking past and looking at a sign can.

Right but the semantic web idea is that the business owner puts the hours on their site and that lets everyone who wants to know the hours. No central site (OSM, google, yelp) required.

I mean the person looking for the hours would probably go to one of those sites, but the hours wouldn’t be stored there.

Re: Whatever Happened to the Semantic Web?

#188

I worked on the Semantic Web, designing core data infrastructure, back when it was still hot. It disappeared because it had two fatal flaws: it was intrinsically non-scalable, both conceptually and technically. First, there is no universal "semantic". The meaning of things is ambiguous, and given a broad enough pool of people and cultural contexts, it becomes nigh impossible to converge on a single consistent model f…

Third, you can't force people to use the correct semantics. They'll use them wrong on purpose for fun and profit. Mark some disturbing content as wholesome, mark it as whatever is popular at the moment to get it in front of more eyeballs, mark it as something only tangentially related in the hope there's a cross over of market, mark it wrong because they don't actually know better.

Yes, I think this is the biggest issue. Since many websites are funded by advertising, they do not want people to be able to extract data from their pages, they want people to "visit" the site and view the ads.

Also, rights. People "own" things like sports fixture lists... they don't want you extracting that data without paying to use it.

The semantic web could be perfect technically, but it was never going to apply to content that people were attempting to "monetise"... which seems to be most of the web's content.

Re: Whatever Happened to the Semantic Web?

#189

This I Know Is True: 1. There are few Internet historians. It is difficult and thankless work that doesn't pay well. And too much of the information is lost to history, or can protested by gain-saying, even the true bits. 2. The first browser, Silversmith, was released in 1987. [ http://www.linfo.org/browser.html ] (thanks BELUG). It worked in English and grew out of my work on the Association of American Publisher's…

Appreciate the history.

History's written by the victors, so this is a little SGML oriented -- I still recall my own transition from developing Gopher sites to WWW sites for Lynx, and how at the time, these things felt the same -- though it was clear what would win.

Wikipedia's discussion of browser history also omits Gopher + clients, which is too bad, it was kind of a big deal at the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_web_browser#Pre...

To put it on the timeline, your Silversmith was 1987, Berners Lee's WWW browser 1990, McCahill's Gopher 1991, Lynx 1992, and Andreessen's Mosaic 1993.

Still blown away by the force of an idea trying to happen.

Re: Whatever Happened to the Semantic Web?

#190

It's really too bad that XML+XSLT didn't take off as the "replacement" for HTML. Before you recoil in horror hear me out... Web pages are a giant mess of content and presentation, and CSS doesn't really help much. XML is at least a way of describing data in a meaningful way. , , , etc. XSLT provided a way of formatting XML in the browser . Sure the internet would still be full of inconsistent content structures, but…

I worked in a web app that used XSLT transformations of XML-formatted domain models to render HTML pages. You ended up doing the same sort of thing that React does, but with _far_ more cumbersome programming constructs. Functions done in XSLT were a nightmare. The idea behind the whole thing was that the "web devs" could be hired for their HTML/CSS skills and never have to touch code. The reality was, they had to bec…

> Functions done in XSLT were a nightmare.

Did you "push" or did you "pull"?

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