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Ask PG: Lisp vs Python (2010)

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Re: Ask PG: Lisp vs Python (2010)

#21

Post by gaius »

francoisdevlin wrote: post #7

I'm a Clojure guy that just wrote my first Pylons app. Here's my impression: 1. Python doesn't suck. I was able to mix FP & OOP approaches to get to my goal fairly quickly. 2. iPython was fun to use, helped out a lot, but it's not SLIME. 3. Guido has an excellent goal with making code readable, and significant white space is not a bad choice. However, I find being able to analyze active data structures in a Clojure n…

Point 6, we are lucky to keep the ones we have, Guido is not keen on map, reduce, etc.

Re: Ask PG: Lisp vs Python (2010)

#22

Post by manish »

Quotes from PG's Essays: If you look at these languages in order, Java, Perl, Python, you notice an interesting pattern. At least, you notice this pattern if you are a Lisp hacker. Each one is progressively more like Lisp. Python copies even features that many Lisp hackers consider to be mistakes. You could translate simple Lisp programs into Python line for line. It's 2002, and programming languages have almost caught up with 1958. Macros (in the Lisp sense) are still, as far as I know, unique to Lisp. This is partly because in order to have macros you probably have to make your language look as strange as Lisp. It may also be because if you do add that final increment of power, you can no longer claim to have invented a new language, but only a new dialect of Lisp. I think it is true even today

Re: Ask PG: Lisp vs Python (2010)

#23

Post by norvig »

Peter Norvig here. I came to Python not because I thought it was a better/acceptable/pragmatic Lisp, but because it was better pseudocode. Several students claimed that they had a hard time mapping from the pseudocode in my AI textbook to the Lisp code that Russell and I had online. So I looked for the language that was most like our pseudocode, and found that Python was the best match. Then I had to teach myself enough Python to implement the examples from the textbook. I found that Python was very nice for certain types of small problems, and had the libraries I needed to integrate with lots of other stuff, at Google and elsewhere on the net.

I think Lisp still has an edge for larger projects and for applications where the speed of the compiled code is important. But Python has the edge (with a large number of students) when the main goal is communication, not programming per se.

In terms of programming-in-the-large, at Google and elsewhere, I think that language choice is not as important as all the other choices: if you have the right overall architecture, the right team of programmers, the right development process that allows for rapid development with continuous improvement, then many languages will work for you; if you don't have those things you're in trouble regardless of your language choice.

Re: Ask PG: Lisp vs Python (2010)

#24

Post by Goladus »

I've used Python for about 4 years and am just starting to use Clojure, so I'll just add a few comments that others haven't mentioned. I'm not trying to offer a definitive comparison.

Clojure's data structures seem a lot like Python's but are a bit more elegant and avoid many of the little python headaches that come up often like d['k'] vs d.k vs d('k'). In clojure it would be (d :k) or (:k d) and both work. If you need memoization there are functions to help you. In clojure there definitely seems to be an attempt to make all the core data structures as compatible as possible (even having a formal abstraction (iSeq) for all of them)

Culturally, Python seems to care more about a minimal core language. Clojure.core has probably 3-4 times as many built-ins as Python. Many of the clojure functions are supporting features Python doesn't have or handles with syntax, like macros and conditional expressions, but there are also clojure functions like even?, that probably won't ever be a Python built-in.

Especially for predicates, functions like even?, every?, ffirst,

Re: Ask PG: Lisp vs Python (2010)

#26

Post by poet »

bad_user wrote: post #17
poet wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know of any Lisp programmer who thinks Python in an acceptable Lisp. In fact, there are some things about Python that are completely unacceptable as far as a Lisp goes: (1) crippled lambda, (2) no easy way to pass chunks of code around, etc.... Obviously not having macros is a given in anything but Lisp. Ruby (because of blocks) is far more of an acceptable Lisp.

> Obviously not having macros is a given in anything but Lisp At least these languages (that I know of) have macros: http://boo.codehaus.org http://nemerle.org http://www.perl6.org

If your language doesn't have Lisp syntax (or more precisely, a lack of syntax entirely) writing macros will be very unpleasant. How are you going to logically think about manipulating the structure of a program that looks like C# or Perl? Macros are already difficult enough to get right as is, without introducing the problem of syntax. Those languages don't have macros any more than Python has a lambda.

Re: Ask PG: Lisp vs Python (2010)

#27

Post by yummyfajitas »

gaius wrote: post #21
francoisdevlin wrote: post #7

I'm a Clojure guy that just wrote my first Pylons app. Here's my impression: 1. Python doesn't suck. I was able to mix FP & OOP approaches to get to my goal fairly quickly. 2. iPython was fun to use, helped out a lot, but it's not SLIME. 3. Guido has an excellent goal with making code readable, and significant white space is not a bad choice. However, I find being able to analyze active data structures in a Clojure n…

Point 6, we are lucky to keep the ones we have, Guido is not keen on map, reduce, etc.

While Guido is not keen on reduce, I don't think he has any desire to eliminate list comprehensions (which are equivalent to map/filter).

Re: Ask PG: Lisp vs Python (2010)

#28

Post by theblackbox »

norvig wrote: post #23

Peter Norvig here. I came to Python not because I thought it was a better/acceptable/pragmatic Lisp, but because it was better pseudocode. Several students claimed that they had a hard time mapping from the pseudocode in my AI textbook to the Lisp code that Russell and I had online. So I looked for the language that was most like our pseudocode, and found that Python was the best match. Then I had to teach myself eno…

Once again the YC community surprises me in both it's depth and it's breadth. From someone who has found your (and Russell's) text invaluable, I say - thank you, sir.

And thank you PG/YC for giving me the opportunity to do so.

Re: Ask PG: Lisp vs Python (2010)

#29

Post by drcode »

bad_user wrote: post #17
poet wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know of any Lisp programmer who thinks Python in an acceptable Lisp. In fact, there are some things about Python that are completely unacceptable as far as a Lisp goes: (1) crippled lambda, (2) no easy way to pass chunks of code around, etc.... Obviously not having macros is a given in anything but Lisp. Ruby (because of blocks) is far more of an acceptable Lisp.

> Obviously not having macros is a given in anything but Lisp At least these languages (that I know of) have macros: http://boo.codehaus.org http://nemerle.org http://www.perl6.org

True, but the syntax for all three of these is pretty hairy.

Lisps might not be the only languages with macros, but they're the only ones with elegant and easy to use macro systems.

You could argue of course this is a moot point, since even Lispers only write macros infrequently. So who cares if it's hard to write one on the rare occasion you need to?

Re: Ask PG: Lisp vs Python (2010)

#30

Post by drunkpotato »

cdavid wrote: post #12
poet wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know of any Lisp programmer who thinks Python in an acceptable Lisp. In fact, there are some things about Python that are completely unacceptable as far as a Lisp goes: (1) crippled lambda, (2) no easy way to pass chunks of code around, etc.... Obviously not having macros is a given in anything but Lisp. Ruby (because of blocks) is far more of an acceptable Lisp.

At least P. Norvig things python is an acceptable language, if not LISP. I think the point about being optimized for small teams is a significant one. Also, because LISP appeals mostly to programmers, but it often "repeals" people with expert knowledge (e.g. scientists without a strong programming background). P. Norvig mentioned that when he converted his AI book from Lisp to python code examples, it seemed much mor…

I think you meant "repels", unless you meant "refudiates", though perhaps your finger stumbled in the middle of "repls".
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