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People Like You More Than You Know

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Re: People Like You More Than You Know

#61

Post by natechols »

theoh wrote: post #54
nazka wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He started to change a while back and now even more. I am sure you missed this that happened recently. https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/CA+55aFy+Hv9O5citAawS+mVZO+ywCK...

Have you seen that his statement was a reaction to a New Yorker investigation about how his attitude had discouraged women from contributing to the kernel? "Torvalds’s decision to step aside came after The New Yorker asked him a series of questions about his conduct for a story on complaints about his abusive behavior discouraging women from working as Linux-kernel programmers." He is in disgrace.

The New Yorker article didn't reveal anything that wasn't well-known in the technical community for years, nor did it turn up any instances of misogyny or sexual harassment. They even mentioned that there's no evidence that he's been more abusive to women than men. It wasn't clear to me why they even ran the story - seems like they were trying for another #MeToo moment, but just ended up restating the obvious: obsessive male geeks can be a pain to work with (regardless of gender).

Undoubtedly Linus is going to need to moderate his temper in the future, but I'd hardly call this "in disgrace", and I don't really see this as something he'll have trouble bouncing back from.

Re: People Like You More Than You Know

#62

Post by DoreenMichele »

jacobolus wrote: post #60
DoreenMichele wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to get into a lot of details, but I will give one example. I had an affair in my twenties with a man whose life could have been absolutely ruined because of it. He wasn't especially good looking, but he had beautiful blue eyes and I had a thing for blue eyes and told him how much I liked his blue eyes. We were not sleeping together at the time and it wasn't an unreasonable thing to say, given circumstanc…

Sorry you had to go through such a shitty aftermath. That sounds terrifying. It sounds like he took the compliment as a sign that you were really serious about him and the relationship, whereas you intended it just as a statement about his eyes. The “nutcase levels of obsessed” part sounds like a pre-existing problem / part of this guy’s temperament, rather than a normal response to receiving compliments. The people…

I think a key detail is he wasn't especially good looking and I complimented him on a physical trait. I've known lots of people over the years who had baggage over X and who made X into some big damn deal where it was impossible to say you liked them without it going weird places.

Short men do this a lot and make it impossible to say "Eh, your height doesn't bother me, but I like X about you."

Men who see themselves as ugly do this.

Men who are heavyset and hung up about it.

Etc ad nauseum.

At some point, my personal policy became "Sorry you have so much baggage. I'm not your goddamned therapist. I wouldn't touch you with a ten foot pole, not because you are short, but because, Oh. My. God. BTDT, got the t-shirt and life is too short for this shit, geez."

People paint themselves into a corner and make it impossible for other people to make X trait into a non issue. And then it becomes this hill to die on and god help you if you stupidly are oblivious and genuinely didn't think they were too short, too ugly or whatever.

Re: People Like You More Than You Know

#63

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

jacobolus wrote: post #52
DoreenMichele wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why you shouldn't be afraid to give out (truthful) compliments folks I've been seriously and repeatedly burned for doing that. I then spent years dialing it back. I'm 53 and only just now working on figuring out how to do that again without letting it turn into some shit show where everyone treats me like I'm their bitch. Every single guy I have ever gushed at about how keen he is has, without fail, promptly…

> Every single guy I have ever gushed at about how keen he is has, without fail, promptly turned into a psycho asshole monster and made me wish I never met him. I have seen / heard of many guys getting complimented over the years (including myself a few times), and never heard of one of them turning into a “psycho”, “asshole”, or ”monster”. A couple times I saw a guy get complimented out of the blue and then kind of…

> A couple times I have seen men brush off / refuse compliments it looked like because they wanted to seem modest

You make that sound like it's some kind of deliberate manipulation or something, some of us were just brought up with the idea that doing helpful things for people is expected and not really that big a deal, and it makes us uncomfortable when people make a big deal of it.

Re: People Like You More Than You Know

#64

Post by DoreenMichele »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #63
jacobolus wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every single guy I have ever gushed at about how keen he is has, without fail, promptly turned into a psycho asshole monster and made me wish I never met him. I have seen / heard of many guys getting complimented over the years (including myself a few times), and never heard of one of them turning into a “psycho”, “asshole”, or ”monster”. A couple times I saw a guy get complimented out of the blue and then kind of…

> A couple times I have seen men brush off / refuse compliments it looked like because they wanted to seem modest You make that sound like it's some kind of deliberate manipulation or something, some of us were just brought up with the idea that doing helpful things for people is expected and not really that big a deal, and it makes us uncomfortable when people make a big deal of it.

It's also actually socially very problematic to have praise heaped on you publicly. It makes other people jealous and causes lots of backlash.

The single most effective thing I have found for reducing forum drama is to mostly ignore any compliments. Saying "Thank you" is inevitably followed by multiple people feeling compelled to openly and publicly hate on me.

Re: People Like You More Than You Know

#65

Post by make3 »

Balgair wrote: post #39
sureaboutthis wrote: post #23

These are true stories. I don't wish to come across as bragging. The last day of a job I had for seven years, the director of engineering told me I was the best engineer he ever knew. And he worked for some pretty well known engineering firms. If he had told me that before, I might not have left. A woman came into my office--someone who didn't seem to want to give me the time of day--and the conversation got around t…

Also, not trying to brag: I've also been told similar things, usually by people that thought less of me (or so I thought, sometimes for years). Typically it's a 'last day' phenomenon. I've had a fair few experiences where I was leaving a place and thought everyone had hated me, but, like you, I was totally wrong. There is one glaring exception though: my winter coat. It's really the only piece of clothing that I have…

or maybe it's just customary to tell anyone you think they are cool, really enjoyed working with them and wish them the best when they leave

Re: People Like You More Than You Know

#66

Post by goldenchrome »

wallflower wrote: post #22
oatsandsugar wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of a fortune cookie I once had, that I first thought was aggressive, and then I found liberating: "You'd care less about what people think about you if you realized how little they do"

Another related quote: “Nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care.”

Another great one: “I am not what I think I am. I am not what you think I am. I am what I think you think I am.”

Re: People Like You More Than You Know

#67

Post by jacobolus »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #63
jacobolus wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every single guy I have ever gushed at about how keen he is has, without fail, promptly turned into a psycho asshole monster and made me wish I never met him. I have seen / heard of many guys getting complimented over the years (including myself a few times), and never heard of one of them turning into a “psycho”, “asshole”, or ”monster”. A couple times I saw a guy get complimented out of the blue and then kind of…

> A couple times I have seen men brush off / refuse compliments it looked like because they wanted to seem modest You make that sound like it's some kind of deliberate manipulation or something, some of us were just brought up with the idea that doing helpful things for people is expected and not really that big a deal, and it makes us uncomfortable when people make a big deal of it.

Sorry, that was not my intention. I agree that in many cases a modest “no big deal” or “it was nothing” is an appropriate response.

In the particular case I am thinking about the guy being complimented (probably unintentionally) hurt the other person’s feelings by basically rejecting the very sincere compliment, even though he could have easily said “I’m always happy to help” or something similarly impersonal and satisfied the complimenter without making anything bigger out of it. Or even used the same words he had but less dismissively. Tone of voice matters a lot in face-to-face communications.

My point was just that I wouldn’t consider even the most insensitive such responses to be “monstrous”, so I was wondering more specifically what Doreen Michele meant.

Re: People Like You More Than You Know

#68

Post by javelin11 »

NoPicklez wrote: post #43
sigfubar wrote: post #31

Does it really matter what others think? Too much of our self-worth is tied up in the fleeting opinions of others. There are only two opinions that matter to me: my wife’s and my daughter’s. The rest of humanity is made up of people I interact with for a specific purpose, such as work, and those interactions are governed by certain rules. Within such frameworks we play our roles and go our separate ways after, and no…

You might hold the opinions of your wife and daughter higher given your point in time, which I'd agree with. However, others opinions of course matter, no they shouldn't totally control how you think about yourself but they certainly do have an impact on how you perceive yourself. For those that perhaps don't have a wife or daughter, then the opinions of others of course have a higher weighting.

I can see how this is a natural tendency that we have all fallen victim to, but I wonder if the idea of self-worth has gotten twisted. In reality, people have misconceptions about other people all the time, and it does us no good to constantly worry that others’ impression of us may not be what we want it to be.

Perhaps the better approach is living day in day out how you want to live and the people you’d want to be around will be naturally attracted to that in the long run after seeing who you really are. That way, you are not out there trying to impress others but being yourself, not giving an iota of a care about what others think, and trusting that they way you live will naturally bring you in contact with people who have respect for you and vice versa.

Seems like a less stressful, healthier way to live, at least.

Re: People Like You More Than You Know

#69

Post by crispinb »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #51
davemp wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why you shouldn't be afraid to give out (truthful) compliments folks. For a small communication effort, you may make a big enough impact for your compliment to be remembered for years. Maybe the person will even smile to themselves and write a nice HN comment about it! (or not quit your company)...

This is why you shouldn't be afraid to give out (truthful) compliments folks I've been seriously and repeatedly burned for doing that. I then spent years dialing it back. I'm 53 and only just now working on figuring out how to do that again without letting it turn into some shit show where everyone treats me like I'm their bitch. Every single guy I have ever gushed at about how keen he is has, without fail, promptly…

> Maybe I'm just doing it wrong.

No, you're just falling foul of a dynamic that preexists you. Women giving men compliments is, for the most part, interpreted as a come-on. It's not fair, and it hinders the frank communication between men and women that makes really healthy social environments such a joy to operate in, but it's the case more often than not.

Re: People Like You More Than You Know

#70

Post by DoreenMichele »

ianai wrote: post #58
DoreenMichele wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why you shouldn't be afraid to give out (truthful) compliments folks I've been seriously and repeatedly burned for doing that. I then spent years dialing it back. I'm 53 and only just now working on figuring out how to do that again without letting it turn into some shit show where everyone treats me like I'm their bitch. Every single guy I have ever gushed at about how keen he is has, without fail, promptly…

People also readily undervalue things that come to them easily - relationships, friendships, money, power, etc. I work at a multi billion dollar facility that is routinely taken for granted by workers. “Oh it’s just this place” sort of thing. I’ve known men and women to undervalue relationships that came to them easily. That exact concept was on display in Hemingway’s The Sun Also Rises. I think the “struggle” really…

I think there are a lot of factors. A few that readily come to mind:

Pecking order nonsense.

People who are big believers in pecking order see you as "beneath" them if you compliment them. They then feel owed and like you are permanently required to kowtow to them and aren't allowed to quit.

Prosody and tone matching.

My son probably is incapable of these two things. He gets very negative social reactions from people all the time. Tone matching signals pecking order at a subconscious level. People aren't consciously aware of it.

I apparently tone match by default, which gets me read as deferential and servile. It works quite well when dealing with, for example, wait staff who routinely get mistreated. I get excellent service anywhere that I am a regular.

But people who do not perceive themselves as "below" me conclude I'm a doormat and they can wipe their boots on me.

Value signaling.

People get this idea that they are irreplaceable and I am being so nice because they are so incredibly amazingly rare and wonderful. I have found it works vastly better for me to be kind of indifferent and make sure they realize "there can be another you in a minute." Which annoys the fool out of me.

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