Live data from Hacker News

Whatever Happened to the Semantic Web?

twobithistory.org

101–110 of 209 posts

Re: Whatever Happened to the Semantic Web?

#101
Companies that don't have pressing revenue issues and a large petty cash allowance use it. A LOT. As a result, most BigCo and BigGovts use a lot of Semantic Web. There are full time employees at these places where all they do, full time, is write pages of documents about applying the Semantic Web to solving a problem. For example, thousands of man hours are spent by the U.S. Military on the Semantic Web every year.

The reality for the rest of us: It does not make financial sense to build the Semantic Web.

It's a chicken and egg problem.

No one has been able to find a way to monetize the Semantic Web when playing the role of the data/ontology provider.

You cant slap on an ad. You hand off the data and someone else renders it and slaps on an ad raking in all the money.

If you are a data provider, it's much more practical going the traditional way: using relational databases and importing/exporting/feeding data using relational formats than turtle/RDF files. The majority of your clients will want your data in that format anyways.

Designing, Building, Maintaining, Querying an Ontology takes a huge amount of expertise/resources.

Even if you had all the money in the world to obtain the data: there currently exist, in single digits, with none of them being open source/free, capable/scalable triple stores that can store an Ontology/Graph that's dense enough to be meaningful while providing any level of practical turnaround time for queries.

Individuals like you and I or small businesses just don't have this expertise/resources.

We would be spending too much time writing our own graph database, carrying out alignments between entities from various datasets, looking at and correct bad data etc before we even get to what we originally set out to do.

Instead, most of us scrape the data from HTML/REST+JSON; use taxonimies at best and custom code to do what we need to get done and call it a day.

12 years ago when I started learning about the Semantic Web, I envisioned we will be, in 2018, using software agents to make our lives simpler:

1. My software bot looks at my calendar to figure out my day's trip and queries the traffic data from the endpoints relevant to my route

2. It also tries to estimate when I will have time to eat and generate a list of nearby restaurants or fastfood locations depending on my available time

3. It would be able to query endpoints from gas stations relevant to my route to figure out whether and if I should fill up gas

4. If portions of my route has toll roads on it, to find out if I already have a pass and remind me to put it in my car ...

A critical component of this happening would be support for federation: la SPARQL Federated Query.

While SPARQL does support Federated Queries, no one has an incentive to support the feature because of the above mentioned monetization challenge.

So is my vision in shambles?

No. I still things done but now through an assorted, custom collection of python scripts, scrapy and PhantomJS (slowly porting over to puppeteer) programs talking to Postgres.

There is not a single line of SPARQL involved in the whole pipeline and it does what I want it to do.

... just like everybody else, we are getting along just fine with our hacky solutions.

Re: Whatever Happened to the Semantic Web?

#102
post #8

I have some insight here because I did a postdoc working on anatomy ontologies in the UK. A big part of the problem with the semantic web is that lots of people in European academia use it as a collection of buzzwords for making grant proposals sexier, without understanding or caring what it actually means. Instead of saying, "Give us money to build a webpage", they say, "Give us money to expose metadata annotations…

> So you have all these academics publishing all this extremely important sounding literature about the semantic web, but as soon as you pry one nanometer deep, it's nothing but a giant ball of crap.

It's not just academia. I made an observation about how most BigCo and BigGovts use a lot of Semantic Web: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18036041

Re: Whatever Happened to the Semantic Web?

#103
post #41

What happened is that the technology spawned by the Semantic Web "fad" is now absolutely everywhere but it looks and works nothing like how people thought it would. Freebase, after being bought by Google became the foundation of the Google Knowledge Graph (aka "things not links"). This kicked off an arms race between all the major search providers to build the largest and most complete knowledge graphs (or at least k…

Yup!

I made an observation about monetizing the Semantic Web when playing the role of the data/ontology provider. You providea all the data while Siri, Alexa and Google Home gets the glory: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18036041

Re: Whatever Happened to the Semantic Web?

#104

I worked on the Semantic Web, designing core data infrastructure, back when it was still hot. It disappeared because it had two fatal flaws: it was intrinsically non-scalable, both conceptually and technically. First, there is no universal "semantic". The meaning of things is ambiguous, and given a broad enough pool of people and cultural contexts, it becomes nigh impossible to converge on a single consistent model f…

Your experience shows!

I made a few observations in my own comment.

One being that there is no usable graph store you and I can use as of 2018.

Another being about monetizing the Semantic Web when playing the role of the data/ontology provider. You provide all the data while the consumers (Siri, Alexa and Google Home) get the glory: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18036041

Re: Whatever Happened to the Semantic Web?

#105
post #71

It couldn't make money... One of the best examples of the semantic web was Daylife[1], and they wound up being "acquired" by two bit players[2] that figured out how to monetize things better.. :-/ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylife [2] https://techcrunch.com/2012/10/17/content-licensing-service-...

Yup!

I made a few observations in my own comment.

One being that there is no usable graph store you and I can use as of 2018.

Another being about monetizing the Semantic Web when playing the role of the data/ontology provider. You provide all the data while the consumers (Siri, Alexa and Google Home) get the glory: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18036041

Re: Whatever Happened to the Semantic Web?

#106
post #58

Every few months my mind circles around that topic. I think it won’t work if the underlying transport/presentation is „the web“ (i.e as in Web 2.0). Instead of decorating semantics/hints around the actual information mostly for SEO reasons it should work the opposite: using all available semantic hints and information bits there already are to create new information by aggregating and putting things in a new context.…

Try expressing not such a vague concept, but a concrete, real world application that actual stakeholders would be interested in investing into. You will find that: A) It's probably not that valuable B) None of the hard problems are technological

You‘re right, I didn’t go into concrete detail.

It‘s also hard to describe but the best analogy I can come up with: picture a CMS that actually is about _content_ instead of being tied to presentation. So e.g. writing an article about a certain historical event at a certain place consists of stringing all the information and relationships together.

Bringing the correct pieces together eliminates errors and gives a piece of information more meaning when used in different contexts.

Being able to correctly reference e.g. Venice, Italy instead of Venice LA, CA makes a huge difference when looking up time schedules, weather forecast, flight connections etc. Sure there are IATA codes for airports. Wouldn‘t it be great to mention Springfield in an article and having all information about that place (as well as all „backlinks“)?

I also don‘t think it is a technology problem.

However, I‘d like to think about this more in terms of DRY principle of information. There are publications on the web that solely exist to duplicate short-lived, relatively low quality information and putting ads on it. This may be acceptable for some consumer‘s point of view, but fails to create long-lasting contribution to mankind.

Just dumping all bits we currently store into massive archives is possible but taking measures to keep the amount of „information archeology“ needed to understand this data feels the right thing to do.

I‘ll iterate on that.

Sorry if this reads even more confusing and esoteric, need some sleep now.

Re: Whatever Happened to the Semantic Web?

#107
post #87

Who needs the semantic web when we have machine learning to extract the information we want?

Extracting information is not the issue. Figuring out what it is is what the Semantic Web (or any good Ontology) helps solve.

For a ML to provide that insight - requires the ML to have access to a good Ontology.

Re: Whatever Happened to the Semantic Web?

#108
post #34
post #8

I have some insight here because I did a postdoc working on anatomy ontologies in the UK. A big part of the problem with the semantic web is that lots of people in European academia use it as a collection of buzzwords for making grant proposals sexier, without understanding or caring what it actually means. Instead of saying, "Give us money to build a webpage", they say, "Give us money to expose metadata annotations…

Thanks for sharing. I am worried that exactly the same will happen to AI in Europe :-/ https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/2165004/euro...

I think AI is a different kind of thing. Re:

>More than 2,000 European AI experts have come together to collaborate on research and call for large-scale funding from the European Union to counter China and America’s rapid progress in the field.

you wouldn't get them worrying about the US / China's rapid progress in Semantic Web.

Re: Whatever Happened to the Semantic Web?

#109

It was the answer to a problem that nobody had, straight out of the dotcom bubble days where those answers could be sold as a business cases or for university grants. Basically any form of structured data, be it in XML or JSON, served through some channel of data, is everything people need. There is no benefit in further standardization. Simple, informal standards work better than monstrous specifications that nobody…

Yup!

I made a few observations in my own comment.

One being that while a set of SPARQL Federated Queries would elegantly replace my assorted, custom collection of python scripts, scrapy and PhantomJS (slowly porting over to puppeteer) programs talking to Postgres, there is no usable graph store you and I can use as of 2018.

Another being about monetizing the Semantic Web when playing the role of the data/ontology provider.

The majority of your clients will want your data in relational formats than turtle/RDF files/format anyways.

.. and if you do provide all the data, the consumers (Siri, Alexa and Google Home) get the glory: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18036041

Re: Whatever Happened to the Semantic Web?

#110
post #94

It was supplanted by AI and machine learning. Not only did these outbuzzword the Semantic Web, but as it turns out it's much easier to have a bunch of GPUs running CNNs to extract semantic info from the dirty data you have rather than attempting to cram that data into a well-specified ontology and enforcing that ontology on new incoming data.

Extracting information is not the issue. Figuring out what it is is what the Semantic Web (or any good Ontology) helps solve.

For a AI/ML to provide that insight - requires the ML to have access to a good Ontology.

The reason is more nuanced. The main reason being money: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18036041

Post reply on HN