Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#981

Post by lainproliant » Tue, Sep 18, 2018, 9:54 PM UTC

serf wrote: post #142

I'm probably going to be alone in saying so, but I always enjoyed Linus and his attitude. (to me) it made him appear honest and dedicated to (his own) goals, and I always felt like that was respectable. (mostly) whenever he was proven technically wrong about how to do something he would concede to the technically better solution, and if he didn't do so he gave reasons for his conclusion. in other words : his technica…

I too appreciated his style of candor at times. I hope that he is able to find a way to keep being Linus while also not resorting to personal attacks, and I applaud him for reflecting on his actions.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#982

Post by DannyBee » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 7:26 AM UTC

endtime wrote: post #878

DannyBee wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, actually (at least, IMHO). Jobs organization failed more than once due to him? Remember that Apple (etc) have been troubled at many times through their history with him at the helm :) Gates also eventually left in part because he was doing more harm than good (and has tried to turn himself into a more reasonable person it seems). Compare that to the organization that MS is now under a leader who isn't an asshole?…

So you think Steve Jobs was a net negative to Apple? They'd be better off if e.g. he'd never come back to run it?

No, as I said, i think it eventually would have caught up with them and ended up a net negative compared to not being an asshole. It did in the past, why would it not in the future?

To give an example: Elon clearly drives tesla in it's current position. Do you think at some point he will not be a clear net negative to the organization?

(It's also interesting to me that essentially the only counterexamples people have tried to raise are CEO's - i'm curious if this means people believe what i say is true for lower levels but not founders/ceos/etc, or what)

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#983

Post by fapjacks » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 10:01 AM UTC

blablabla123 wrote: post #935

fapjacks wrote: post #865

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally. I've always felt that's the price for having the Linux kernel be what it is today. Just imagine what kinds of shit would get merged into the kernel if it was run by a council of submissive, overly-polite people with soft handshakes. I always considered certain kinds of programming to be like smithing on a hot forge: If you can't handle the occasional burn, then it's not for you. I mean this idea is not even…

I think the comparison with the workplace doesn't work really well. Linux is an Open-Source project, with the exception of some people that get paid by their employer to hack on the Linux kernel, people work on it voluntarily. This is a whole different universe. To be honest, I don't see any point in overly hot forges in the workplace. People hopefully go to work because they like what they do there. But on the other…

I agree with your third paragraph, but I disagree with the others. But interestingly, where I slightly disagree with your third paragraph, it's because of reasons that essentially boil down to your first two paragraphs (heh). I feel this is sort of related to people that say "If you don't like it, go write your own" which is at this point really not possible with something like the Linux kernel, and so choosing another option just isn't an option, really. But mostly I agree that if you don't like the way the Linux kernel is run, there are other options and after all, nobody said it's a community anybody's forced to be involved in. On top of that it's not an all-or-nothing proposition, either. If your kernel patch gets shot down, it's actually deliberately built to make it very easy to just compile it yourself, with your patch, and then just rebase your patch anytime upstream changes.

But with respect to your first couple of paragraphs, I think it's really a lucky set of circumstances that allow a person to work a job in a workplace that they enjoy, and I will say for the both of us (presuming of course that you feel the same way) that we are very lucky to work in the industry we work in. But I also feel very strongly that jobs are -- for most of the rest of humanity -- something that people do because they have to and not because they particularly enjoy it. There are obviously workplaces with hot forges and I would argue that there are more workplaces with figurative (and literal) hot forges than workplaces without. I worked a job for a number of years which required me to carry (and use) various kinds of machine guns. Now I can't say I didn't enjoy it personally, but it's true that most guys were there because they had few other options. They were working a job with a hot forge because if they didn't, their kids would go hungry. I mean I'm pretty sure there would be no humans working at McDonalds in the Star Trek universe.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#984

Post by gorbachev » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 1:20 PM UTC

Finally!

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#985

Post by ilovewhiskey » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 5:02 PM UTC

mmirate wrote: post #969

ilovewhiskey wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can never control other people's behavior This is another way to say > we believe the world is harsh and unforgiving You seem to have internalized this perspective completely.

Post-scarcity is, at best, a distant fantasy. Ergo, sufficient resources to forgive everyone, do not exist. Ergo, it is best for any person to not expect forgiveness. It's not a perspective; it logically follows from reality.

First, you are intentionally limiting the scope of my claim. "Unforgiving" is just a synonym of "harsh", "challenging" or "adversarial", not about actual person forgiving someone.

Second, your logical proof is wrong. The existence of resource scarcity in the global scale does not mean the global resource scarcity, some places may have enough resources.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#986

Post by mmirate » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 8:04 PM UTC

ilovewhiskey wrote: post #985

mmirate wrote: post #969

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Post-scarcity is, at best, a distant fantasy. Ergo, sufficient resources to forgive everyone, do not exist. Ergo, it is best for any person to not expect forgiveness. It's not a perspective; it logically follows from reality.

First, you are intentionally limiting the scope of my claim. "Unforgiving" is just a synonym of "harsh", "challenging" or "adversarial", not about actual person forgiving someone. Second, your logical proof is wrong. The existence of resource scarcity in the global scale does not mean the global resource scarcity, some places may have enough resources.

> First, you are intentionally limiting the scope of my claim. "Unforgiving" is just a synonym of "harsh", "challenging" or "adversarial", not about actual person forgiving someone.

I wasn't being fully literal, either: when someone makes enough mistakes in life to deplete their private resources, they seek "forgiveness" in either handouts or in finding some new unusual opportunity to ply. It is, at worst, narrow terminology.

> Second, your logical proof is wrong. The existence of resource scarcity in the global scale does not mean the global resource scarcity, some places may have enough resources.

Such local situations are self-removing; if a good is locally in such sharp surplus as to be post-scarce, then the only logical action is to export it to somewhere else, as such post-scarcity is such an extreme condition that the price differential will certainly outweigh almost any terrestrial transit costs.

(Notable exception: one disadvantage of the Soviet economy was that it sometimes required supplies be post-scarce in their own production facilities or warehouses but ultra-scarce elsewhere.)

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#987

Post by joesb » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 6:03 AM UTC

brennebeck wrote: post #964

LinuxBender wrote: post #947

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently there were no Federation regulations against this. [1] [1] - https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/141670/what-are-th...

I’m honestly shocked. I mean, it was the 80’s, but still, it’s Trek.

Why would it be, though? It's two adults having consensual relationship. May be you think the rule should be there because the current society haven't developed enough.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#988

Post by eeZah7Ux » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 3:55 PM UTC

briatx wrote: post #491

DoreenMichele wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's actually the very definition of abuse. I am much more comfortable with people being publicly blunt. At least there is no gaslighting involved where the victim wonders if they imagined it because everyone keeps telling them "he would never do that" or whatever. If you are on excellent terms with someone and they trust you, etc, it can work to be more blunt in private. But most people doing that are just hiding…

It doesn't sound abusive to me at all. "Criticize privately, praise publicly" is a well known management trope.

> "Criticize privately, praise publicly" is a well known management trope

That does not make it right.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#989

Post by billiam » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 7:48 PM UTC

1. The Linux kernel is the most successful software project in history. 2. This is not the same as saying that it can continue to be so successful as it takes over the universe. 3. Most people including his detractors would say Linus' many good and bad qualities are a big part of why it has succeeded until now. 4. Linux would be better if as many smart people as possible can work on the project. 5. His self-admitted abusive email practices (mostly they are in email, he's pretty meek in person IMHO) appear to have alienated a lot of people, and indeed seem to have driven away a decent share of half the brains that can make the kernel better. That's women, in case that is not clear. 6. If the kernel project wants to continue to succeed and power our cars, and phones and spaceships, key people not just Linus need to consider that it can't scale with the same dynamic it has. There are a gazillion useless contributors, there always will be, and the somewhat closed male community of core developers and reviewers needs to find ways to let in players in a way that does not alienate all the people that are not like them and communicate like them. And those attitudes start at the benevolent dictator level.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#990

Post by shady-lady » Fri, Sep 21, 2018, 12:03 AM UTC

FuckOffNeemo wrote: post #527

coffeemug wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same. Linus always called a spade a spade, and I always respected that. In a culture where the Overton window has shrunk considerably and people habitually hide their thoughts, I think this kind of attitude is more important, not less. People give up ability to say certain things in the name of inclusion, and then lose ability to think those things in the first place. I'll take an asshole over a pushover any day, and…

"A man who says a spade is a spade is only fit to wield one" - I can't recall who this quote is from but it had a profound impact on my how I conduct myself. Or: "A hammer is no more or less honest than a scalpel." I had the same sense of reality as Linus is having now, fortunately I was only 26 when it was brought to my attention. Previously I took pride in calling a spade a spade. I was abrupt, people actually prai…

Not related to your growth or realisation but I really dislike that pithy usage of the phrase:

>The man who could call a spade a spade should be compelled to use one

Literarily, fantastic usage. But it has all the hallmarks of something which looks to have deeper meaning than it does, even more so when the preceding line is omitted.

It was Oscar Wilde..from wiki:

>...character Lord Henry Wotton remarks: "It is a sad truth, but we have lost the faculty of giving lovely names to things. The man who could call a spade a spade should be compelled to use one. It is the only thing he is fit for."