China’s all-seeing surveillance network • Hacker News Board

Re: China’s all-seeing surveillance network

#31

Post by clouddrover » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 11:57 AM UTC

bopbop wrote: post #8

yesenadam wrote: post #2

Better title - Social credit: China's digital dictatorship Pretty horrifying story, sounds like Black Mirror.

Yeah, the title is awful - I was happier with the article then I thought I'd be, as it did go in to some of the negative points. To point to any atomic automatic judgment of ones citizens based on their beliefs as a good thing is a bit of a weird view, however. The examples they give are all terrifying. It's also not great that the lady they report as pro social credit is only revealed later on in the piece as being…

> I'm glad she "married for love", but I don't see why it would be relevant

They're just making the point that she didn't marry him for his social credit score, even though he happens to have a high score under the system.

To quote the article immediately prior to that section:

"Who your friends and family are will affect your score. If your best friend or your dad says something negative about the government, you’ll lose points too. Who you date and ultimately partner with will also affect social credit."

It seems like your social credit score is positioned as your key to happiness. Better not get a bad one or associate with anyone who did. Better not wreck your child's future by saying something bad about the government.

Re: China’s all-seeing surveillance network

#32

Post by Numberwang » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 11:58 AM UTC

infiniteseeker wrote: post #28

Numberwang wrote: post #3

I think the concept of social credit has a lot of merits. But the risk for overreach is substantial unfortunately. I'd love to get rid of people who are unable to ride a train like a social human from the trains and lock people out of cinemas who can't behave as one should expect.

And I’d love to give people who have similar views to you (on this matter) a -1 score for life. Who’s right?

Well the rules should be known just as laws are, not a personal opinion by Mr Inifinitypants.

Re: China’s all-seeing surveillance network

#33

Post by EZ-E » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 12:00 PM UTC

crispyambulance wrote: post #27

Obviously the camera system can track humans walking around, but does it actually identify specific individuals? What does that number in the box with the chinese text mean? Are they able to use facial recognition _everywhere_ and thus record where everyone is or, more importantly, was? I am skeptical that this can pulled off with current technology? Can it?

The number seems to be the social credit score

The videos are not a real camera feed I believe, it seems to be there to illustrate the article

Re: China’s all-seeing surveillance network

#34

Post by perilunar » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 12:03 PM UTC

bopbop wrote: post #25

bopbop wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the title is awful - I was happier with the article then I thought I'd be, as it did go in to some of the negative points. To point to any atomic automatic judgment of ones citizens based on their beliefs as a good thing is a bit of a weird view, however. The examples they give are all terrifying. It's also not great that the lady they report as pro social credit is only revealed later on in the piece as being…

Just for reference the original title was 'Leave no dark corner'

I get that as a page title, but a different 'title' in the URL. Maybe they are AB testing the title?

Re: China’s all-seeing surveillance network

#35

Post by perilunar » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 12:05 PM UTC

teekert wrote: post #12

So, does anybody know how far off this is? Is this real within 2 years?

The article says there's pilot programs already happening, and it will be full operation by 2020, so yes, it's real.

Re: China’s all-seeing surveillance network

#36

Post by EZ-E » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 12:06 PM UTC

The article confuses the Sesame score (credit score computed by Alibaba to be used within their app) and the social score (government project which isn't really deployed yet but intended to rely on multiple private sources like Alibaba's sesame score)

In the 2018 state of things, the social credit score is not (yet) as invasive as the article suggests. AFAIK it does not change according to your purchases, daily habits or online comments unless you get arrested. For now it mostly is influenced by credit repayments, debt and previous condamnations. I lived there 3 years and my "sesame score" as displayed on Alipay is still the default one.

Re: China’s all-seeing surveillance network

#37

Post by paradite » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 12:06 PM UTC

yurie_breschnef wrote: post #4

I think this is a horrible idea. Just imagine how many times we have been wrong in our judgement of the behaviour of citizens. What would the social credit score of Ghandi or Martin Luther Kind have been, at the time of their prominent actions? We have proven time and time again that there is no sure way to judge how "social and acceptable" something is, and the value of a behaviour to our society. What is seen as "u…

The irony is unreal in this comment.

Re: China’s all-seeing surveillance network

#38

Post by spacehome » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 12:08 PM UTC

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #9

> Every step she takes, every one of her actions big or small — even what she thinks — can be tracked and judged. [emphasis added] Can anybody shed upon how these Social Credit systems would be able to track what a person thinks ?

It's given away by your eye saccades.

/sarcasm (for now)

Re: China’s all-seeing surveillance network

#39

Post by rubinelli » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 12:08 PM UTC

I expect those that defend the system see its appeal as a more rational alternative to guanxi, the informal networks of trust and reciprocal obligation that pervade Chinese society. Do you want a loan, or need a good hospital for your parent? You don't need to bribe or schmooze with the right person, only to be an orderly, hard-working citizen.

On the other hand, you're trusting your score to "the algorythm", and any SEO consultant can tell you how brutally flawed and unfair "the algorythm" can be, even without overt malicious intent.

Re: China’s all-seeing surveillance network

#40

Post by ffwacom » Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 12:13 PM UTC

js8 wrote: post #17

ffwacom wrote: post #7

So much for chinese dominance as a superpower, they are really shooting themselves in the foot with even trying this.

Note that Soviet Union remained superpower for some 70 years after it shot itself to the foot with Ukraine famine. While I agree ultimately this will fail to produce a competitive society, it might take a long time before people will be able to change the things for the better.

Accurate, but that's 70 years of social development they'll miss out on. In the meantime the west will continue its shitshow into some undetermined darwinistic future, as it has always been. Things are speeding up so we both know it won't be 70 years, the social score thing is just an expression/attempt at central control, wich has never worked. Economy and social values as a chaotic system, predicting the future, etc.