Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

On banning racial terms in programming

medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 36 posts

Re: On banning racial terms in programming

#21

Post by thiht »

nickmooney wrote: post #6

It's not about intention. Nobody believes that the words "master" and "slave" are intended to cause racial stress in a technical context -- but that's not the point. The point is that these words do not exist in a vacuum, and for many people words like "master" and "slave" do in fact evoke historically-grounded feelings of discomfort, even when that isn't the intent. When someone says "hey, I feel hurt when you use t…

So if I feel bad when you use the word "sacrifice" (you know, because of human sacrifice), will you stop using it? Just because I'm overly sensitive?

Re: On banning racial terms in programming

#22

Post by typetheory »

methodover wrote: post #7

This is a fucking awful blog post. Just because you aren’t offended by it doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be changed. That’s an awful argument. It’s trivial to avoid these racially charged words when programming. So just do it. Like, if a subordinate at work came to me and was like, “I wish we could do X, it would make me feel better about working here,” and X is some trivial thing, it kind of doesn’t matter what it is. It…

The mistake you make is that you expect banning these specific words will satisfy their problem.

Time and time again this has been shown to be wrong. There is not some objective wrong being righted, there is just a subjective irritation being magnified because it makes people feel self important to have a pet issue they can parade around for pity and to gloat when they get their way.

Listening to people means listening to everyone, and that includes all the ones who have learned it's better to shut up lest they become the target of these moral bullies. Especially because you actually need to make an effort to hear them, as opposed to those 'victims' with suspiciously loud and wide reach.

I do understand it. That's why I say no.

But take your own advice: when people say these neo-puritans bother them, and that the fix costs as little as just saying no to a handful of busybodies ruining it for everyone, why not listen to _them_ and fix it?

See, your justification is not a justification at all. It's just a rationalization, based on a preconception of what kind of offense, taken by what kind of person, is valid in the first place.

Re: On banning racial terms in programming

#23

Post by [deleted] »

thiht wrote: post #21
nickmooney wrote: post #6

It's not about intention. Nobody believes that the words "master" and "slave" are intended to cause racial stress in a technical context -- but that's not the point. The point is that these words do not exist in a vacuum, and for many people words like "master" and "slave" do in fact evoke historically-grounded feelings of discomfort, even when that isn't the intent. When someone says "hey, I feel hurt when you use t…

So if I feel bad when you use the word "sacrifice" (you know, because of human sacrifice), will you stop using it? Just because I'm overly sensitive?

[deleted]

Re: On banning racial terms in programming

#25

Post by mikestew »

hannasanarion wrote: post #9
mikestew wrote: post #2

I think the money quote is "By banning those words, you’re giving them the meaning you don’t want them to have." When I use "master/slave", it's not because I'm an insensitive asshole, it's because it has a distinct, technical meaning that has nothing to do with the topic you might think it does. And thus it comes down to, "I have chosen for that word to have this particular meaning (and only that meaning), which I f…

> And thus it comes down to, "I have chosen for that word to have this particular meaning (and only that meaning), which I find offensive, therefore please don't use it anymore.", knowing full well that the speaker meant no offense when they were discussing the new drive layout. I'm not completely unsympathetic, but I sometimes feel the sympathy only goes one way. No, it's the other way around. Engineers did not inve…

This excuse didn't work when you used it to justify saying "ass" and "bitch" in elementary school

Comparing my argument to that of grade school children isn't going to win me over. If that's your understanding of the nuanced differences, perhaps I'll let you have that one and just go on about my day as no minds are going to get changed here.

Re: On banning racial terms in programming

#26

Post by camgunz »

delian66 wrote: post #17
camgunz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software engineering is undergoing a (nother) cultural change. More people than ever before are engineers and are participating in its culture, bringing their own perspectives and experiences with them. Consequently, a lot more people are weighing in on what is and isn't acceptable. This is good! Diversity breeds strength, and while it can be tumultuous it's always worth it. Language changes too. There are all kinds…

So where does this "cultural" change end? Do you want to have control over not only the used terms, but even the thought constructs that they represent? Most peoples throughout history have been enslaved at one time or another. Most peoples have waged war on one another, most of them brutal and prolonged. A small percentage do criminal acts even in peace time. Do you want to ban/replace terms like war, battle, kill a…

> So where does this "cultural" change end?

That's a fair question, and the answer is that cultural change is never "done", nor does it move in a single direction. I would imagine in 20 years our culture will be significantly different than it is now. I hope it's more tolerant, kind, and understanding, but there's no guarantee.

> Do you want to have control over not only the used terms, but even the thought constructs that they represent?

I'm not super sure what you mean by this. I'm pretty ok with thought constructs. Where I draw a line is introducing them insensitively or harmfully. Like, feel free to think anything you like at a wedding, but maybe keep your cynicism about love and connection to yourself for the duration.

> Most peoples throughout history have been enslaved at one time or another. Most peoples have waged war on one another, most of them brutal and prolonged. A small percentage do criminal acts even in peace time. Do you want to ban/replace terms like war, battle, kill also?

I get where you're coming from, and I do think in some circumstances that might be appropriate. Consider if you were building an app for refugees from a war that's killed millions, and you, for whatever reason, needed some ranking algorithm and called it ThingWar (whatever "Thing" would really be). Is it the worst thing in the world? Nah, but it is a little oblivious.

All I'm saying is that the legacy of Atlantic slavery still exerts a strong force on the lives of millions and millions of people. We should be sensitive to that.

Re: On banning racial terms in programming

#27

Post by nickmooney »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #11
nickmooney wrote: post #6

It's not about intention. Nobody believes that the words "master" and "slave" are intended to cause racial stress in a technical context -- but that's not the point. The point is that these words do not exist in a vacuum, and for many people words like "master" and "slave" do in fact evoke historically-grounded feelings of discomfort, even when that isn't the intent. When someone says "hey, I feel hurt when you use t…

No, those people want to feel important and express control over you. It's morally wrong to accommodate such behavior.

I just honestly do not believe that those are the motivations of folks trying to decolonize programming vocabulary.

Re: On banning racial terms in programming

#28

Post by nickmooney »

delian66 wrote: post #18
nickmooney wrote: post #6

It's not about intention. Nobody believes that the words "master" and "slave" are intended to cause racial stress in a technical context -- but that's not the point. The point is that these words do not exist in a vacuum, and for many people words like "master" and "slave" do in fact evoke historically-grounded feelings of discomfort, even when that isn't the intent. When someone says "hey, I feel hurt when you use t…

>>for many people words like "master" and "slave" do in fact evoke historically-grounded feelings of discomfort, even when that isn't the intent So what? Most peoples (all?) in history have been enslaved at one time or another. Some people are right now ! I understand that it is easier to protest against word usage in freaking source files/documentation, in a field where most people are very agreeable and soft and wa…

Sure. My ancestors were enslaved by the British. The difference is that I do not face discrimination today as a result of that. For black people in the US today, that's not the case -- the effects of slavery are still systemic issues.

Re: On banning racial terms in programming

#29

Post by nickmooney »

thiht wrote: post #21
nickmooney wrote: post #6

It's not about intention. Nobody believes that the words "master" and "slave" are intended to cause racial stress in a technical context -- but that's not the point. The point is that these words do not exist in a vacuum, and for many people words like "master" and "slave" do in fact evoke historically-grounded feelings of discomfort, even when that isn't the intent. When someone says "hey, I feel hurt when you use t…

So if I feel bad when you use the word "sacrifice" (you know, because of human sacrifice), will you stop using it? Just because I'm overly sensitive?

I mean, yeah, if you truly feel hurt when I use that word, I won't use it around you. Absolutely. It's more important to me that the people around me feel heard and seen than for me to get to use a particular word.

If a whole group of people say "hey this word makes me feel uncomfortable of hurt," then I try to modify my vocabulary accordingly and eliminate it.

Re: On banning racial terms in programming

#30

Post by voidr »

nickmooney wrote: post #6

It's not about intention. Nobody believes that the words "master" and "slave" are intended to cause racial stress in a technical context -- but that's not the point. The point is that these words do not exist in a vacuum, and for many people words like "master" and "slave" do in fact evoke historically-grounded feelings of discomfort, even when that isn't the intent. When someone says "hey, I feel hurt when you use t…

I can't wait for people to come forward and say that they feel hurt by words like: freedom, freedom of expression and liberty.

> words like "master" and "slave" do in fact evoke historically-grounded feelings of discomfort, even when that isn't the intent.

With your logic, we should stop teaching history, that way, these words would stop making people uncomfortable.

Post reply on HN