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Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

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201–210 of 407 posts

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#201
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the problem is with the employer, not the platform No, the platform gives the tools to specifically filter by sex. Facebook is enabling sexual discrimination. > every local custom euphemism You mean the law, the very thing that will get your in legal troubles if you break it. I'm pretty sure it's illegal to discriminate by sex when it comes to employment in US, and Facebook is an american company.

> No, the platform gives the tools to specifically filter by sex. Facebook is enabling sexual discrimination. Like any ad seller, Facebook offers displaying ads based on demographics. This is a basic requirement for many advertisers, because a lot of products happen to be bought exclusively by one gender. You have a right to buy tampons, you don't have a right to be displayed advertisements for tampons. Even if there…

I disagree. If they know they are hosting employment ads, they need to be required to perform to legal standards. That means that, minimum, an employment ad should be seen differently than a regular ad by the algorithm and by the backend - no demographic weighting can be allowed within the protected classes; unless the employer applies for a BFOQ, makes it clear what that BFOQ is, and has it authorized by either an EEOC rep or an employment law professional within the ad platform (in this case Facebook). Otherwise they're clearly in violation of the law and knowingly so.

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#202
post #7

I'm a bit mixed about this; it is clearly discriminatory to publish a job ad that says "women need not apply", but it doesn't feel inherently discriminatory to advertise a job in, say, "Men's Health" but not "Cosmopolitan" magazine. Or to advertise on a particular television channel or program (whose viewers may not match the population at large). That's just how advertising works. Is that crazy? Would this be differ…

No one is excluded though. A woman can buy Men's Health ; a man can buy Cosmopolitan . What Facebook is doing is enabling straight up exclusion of genders from advertising, which is completely different in the eyes of the law.

It's not entirely different in the eyes of law - in fact, advertising a job solely in men-targeted magazines would be considered as a discriminatory recruitment practice and be just as illegal as these targeted Facebook ads.

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#203
post #7

I'm a bit mixed about this; it is clearly discriminatory to publish a job ad that says "women need not apply", but it doesn't feel inherently discriminatory to advertise a job in, say, "Men's Health" but not "Cosmopolitan" magazine. Or to advertise on a particular television channel or program (whose viewers may not match the population at large). That's just how advertising works. Is that crazy? Would this be differ…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disparate_impact

One thing you might be interested in reading about is Disparate Impact. Discrimination cases can be proven by showing that a practice has a disproportionately adverse impact on members of a protected class, even in the absence of intentional discrimination.

The Supreme Court noted in Griggs v. Duke Power Co that the Civil Rights Act bans "not only overt discrimination but also practices that are fair in form, but discriminatory in operation." In fact, "absence of discriminatory intent does not redeem employment procedures" that operate in a discriminatory manner. Unintentional discrimination is still discrimination.

In a piece on age-based discrimination, Facebook said, "age-based targeting for employment purposes is an accepted industry practice and for good reason: it helps employers recruit and people of all ages find work." (https://www.propublica.org/article/facebook-ads-age-discrimi...).

I think a lot of the industry has been casual about job ads, but Facebook is kinda the first platform that really lets you be exact with a lot of your targeting. Before, maybe you feign ignorance that "Men's Health" doesn't have a lot of women readers. Plus, women can read Men's Health. However, I can't get Facebook ads targeted to a different gender. Facebook lets you be reasonably exacting.

If I create a Facebook ad for a job application with no other promotion of the opening (including on my company's website) and target it just to men, is that discriminatory? IANAL, but in Griggs the court held that procedures that act as built-in headwinds for protected groups are illegal. Making it so that women could only hear about the job from a man seems like quite a headwind working against their likelihood of getting the job. Griggs is about job qualifications that were used as a proxy to keep black workers from getting jobs, but making it so that a group of potential workers can't even see the job application seems similar.

Going back to your example: if someone used a gender proxy like "people who like action movies", I think it would be hard to defend in court. 1) They don't need to prove discriminatory intent, just disparate impact. 2) It seems likely that a company adopting such targeting would have communication indicating their discriminatory intent. "Facebook won't let us target by gender anymore! What can we do?" "Let's use things like action movies to get the same result!" If that comes out in discovery, it would seem like a simple case. 3) At some point, a court is going to want to know what the basis of that targeting was and it's going to sound really hollow. But it doesn't even matter if they come up with a good cover story, because even if it was unintentional, it can still fall afoul of the law.

On the other hand, if I run a tech company and wanted to target "people you are into the Python programming language", that's a group that will likely skew male, but it kinda passes a sniff-test. It just doesn't smell funny. "Yeah, um, we want programmers and I thought targeting people into Python was reasonable." That does sound reasonable. It's not meant as a proxy for gender, but for an interest/skill that is closely related to the job. Action movies aren't related to my job, but a programming language is.

Going back to the magazines: I think much of the same might apply, but I'm guessing that we've been relatively lax about it as a society. It might not feel inherently discriminatory, but disparate impact doesn't rely on intentional discrimination. You say, "that's just how advertising works," but you could easily place ads in multiple places to reach a wide variety of people. One program might not reflect the population at large, but I don't think it's rocket science to advertise in multiple places to reach a more representative sample.

As I noted above, Facebook says that job targeting (at least on age) is an accepted industry practice. There are people that don't like the disparate impact theory (though it is established Supreme Court precedent since 1971). Plus, I don't know if disparate impact has ever been used in terms of narrowing the field before applications even come in. In Griggs, the procedure disproprotionately weeded out black applicants. In the Facebook case, those potential applicants never even knew the job existed.

I have definitely thought the same things you've thought. Society is hard. Fairness is hard. But I think it's important that we work toward fairness. This isn't meant to be anti-company. I just think companies should have a bit of a justification for doing something if it runs contrary to fairness. If you're only advertising your programming jobs to people under 40, why? If the answer is, "we mostly don't want to hire older programmers, but if a good one happens to come along we'll take them", that doesn't feel like a great justification. In fact, it basically admits discrimination. If the answer is, "there are more young programmers than old programmers", I think the retort has to be, "given the loads of ways you can target, why not target based on interests rather than age or gender? Targeting to people interested in CS, various programming languages, etc. seems both better for you and for potential applicants...unless you're trying to discriminate." It's not always simple, straight-forward, or easy, but I think we're trying to build a better, more fair society and that requires hard-work and questioning.

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#204
post #181

So the argument, as I see it here, is that companies should be forced to spend additional resources advertising to demographics that they have identified as not strong leads in their campaigns, so that overly virtuous people can feel happy about them spending money on something that likely won't concern them in the slightest. Righto. If the article's title was "Facebook is letting job advertisers target only women" o…

It has nothing to do with virtue, it's a matter of Facebook and its advertisers violating the written law. EEOC exists due to law, and all employers are required to abide by it. If you violate equal opportunity employment by discriminating for any one of a number of protected classes, you are acting unlawfully. Facebook should not be so openly allowed to violate the law, and for doing so, the individuals in the corpo…

Facebook does not employ anyone here, it's about ads.

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which law specifically states what you say? It's one thing to target a gender in your advertisement. It's another to deny someone a job based on their gender.

>Which law specifically states what you say? Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964

[deleted]

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#206
post #62

This is a situation where you must ask yourself the very difficult question of what is more important, individual freedom or equality? I think it goes beyond egalitarianism, because I certainly think any female who wants to become a highly-paid programmer should be able to do so simply by building merit, without any additional barriers. I also think that any person, male or female, has the right to decide what demogr…

Yes, it surely is a situation where this question should be asked, however the question has been asked and "we the people" have decided (and written into law) that in this type of scenarios equality overrides individual freedom.

In particular, it's been decided that in many cases (IIRC it starts to apply if the company has more than 15 employees) any person, male or female, does not have the right to decide what demographics their private company is composed of. That's it. This is the similar to "the right to swing your fist ends at my nose"; there is an inherent conflict between ability to choose demographics in your company and the ability of all demographics to get a fair job, we can't have both. We considered that this is a problem that needs to be solved and that such restrictions are going to be (part of) a solution. We may make different choices in future, but that's the one we currently have.

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is excluded though. A woman can buy Men's Health ; a man can buy Cosmopolitan . What Facebook is doing is enabling straight up exclusion of genders from advertising, which is completely different in the eyes of the law.

That's not really how digital advertising targeting works though. In fact, they go to great lengths to make sure you illegally exclude by a class (Google is especially strict about this) and don't transmit anything that is considered PII or "potentially PII". Gender, like IP address, is in the potentially PII realm. What this actually is going to do is target "people interested in typically male interests". That is g…

> That's not really how digital advertising targeting works though. In fact, they go to great lengths to make sure you illegally exclude by a class

Facebook absolutely has an option to show your advert to a specific gender, though

> Gender. Target ads to women, men or people of all genders.

https://www.facebook.com/business/help/717368264947302?helpr...

So what's happening after that point to stop you from restricting in this way? I've never created an avert like this.

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#209
In the following, I assume either pay-per-impression, or pay-per-click with a limited pool size (ex. 500 views limit per day). In the former I assume the "cost" is monetary, in the latter I assume the "cost" is temporal.

Genuinely curious about this, what if somebody is posting an ad for hiring labourers (brick layers, etc.)? Do they pay the cost by also targeting women? What about targeting ads for hiring beauticians at females? Is that wrong? Should the company pay the cost to also advertise to men in the off-chance that they catch one of the very few male beauticians?

To me it makes sense that advertisers, regardless of what they are advertising (job, product, service, etc.) should be able to target the demographics that they believe will achieve the desired outcome. Obviously this has few exceptions such as targeting cigarettes, alcohol, etc. at minors.

Are there any good arguments against this?

Of note: The subject of this topic seems a bit biased, why not "Facebook is letting job advertisers target specific genders?"

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#210
The more I think about this topic, the more I come to the conclusion there is one simple solution to all the targeted-ad related problems - at least from the platforms point of view: Make all data about ads public. Who is targeted, how many people are reached, what other campaigns does a company run on that platform. Let anyone see all the data and then don't blame the platform but the advertiser. Of course this would only work if at least the big ones (Google and Facebook) are be on board. Regulations which force all platforms to publish this data could minimize the competitive disadvantage that would otherwise result from companies wanting to keep this stuff secret and selecting platforms accordingly.
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