China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling • Hacker News Board

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#291

Post by jayalpha » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 7:50 AM UTC

snaky wrote: post #280

jayalpha wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, I can buy many products cheaper in the US than in China. This tells you something. Due to this and fake products I buy clothes (YES, clothes!), shoes and electronic products only in the EU and the US. Edit: Don't get me wrong. I love China. But many people now see only the strength of China. They have a strong culture. But it comes with many weaknesses. They once fell behind western culture. They may fa…

> I can buy many products cheaper in the US than in China Would you list some examples of that products, please?

Try to buy a branded jeans, shoe whatever here in a street shop. Super expensive. Taobao? How much is fake? How can you know that it is fake? Buy from an expensive seller and hope it is not fake? Try to buy DocMartens, Caterpillar, whatever shoes. They should be cheaper since they are produced here. Good luck.

Okay, you can buy cheap and fake, for example in the "Silk Road" department store in Beijing. I think it is impossible to buy a genuine item there. A fake Armani jeans cost you 100 RMB, now it is more like 160 RMB. Branded underwear 10 RMB. But the quality is very poor. No comparison to the US. And if you buy in outlets in the US or EU then their prices are unbeatable. EU has about 20% sales tax that you can get full or at least 50% reimbursed as a non resident.

IT? It is not really cheaper, no guarantee (2 years in the EU!). Many stuff may be relabled, refurbished, defect or of poorer quality, even for the same brand. Where to buy? Who to trust? Newegg has now a shop in China. If I were to buy my stuff here this would be the place that I would try.

I just checked a Seagate 8 TB HDD. Is was 262 USD (Newegg CN) vs. 249 USD (Newegg US).

I bought a smoothie mixer in a Chinese warehouse. 32 Dollars was the cheapest option. In the US I bought one for 10 Dollars (okay, long time ago). I am sure you can order a cheap one on Taobao, but it gives you an idea.

Also, you may have realized that some super cheap Chinese sites like DealExtreme (DX) are Chinese, but don't offer shipment to China (at least the last time I checked).

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#292

Post by nl » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 7:50 AM UTC

wahern wrote: post #125

nl wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump wants an excuse to pull out of the WTO.

What Trump wants is "a win", which is an extremely subjective assessment on his part and doesn't even necessarily require any material change in position. Everything else is a means to that end, including the endless posturing and 1980s Wall Street-style hardball tactics.

This is true.

But additionally his inclination is against any kind of treaty or multinational body which doesn't involve immediate tribute paid to the US.

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#293

Post by sonnyblarney » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 7:52 AM UTC

gonvaled wrote: post #227

pathseeker wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the favouring of US IP holders (as incumbents and head starters) You mean favoring the people that actually invented these things? I understand there isn't much of a notion of IP in China, but are you suggesting that it's unfair to not be able to copy IP and just manufacture without paying?

The IP laws have been written by the US, for the US, and its terms keep on changing to continue protecting US interests. The IP laws should be a trade-off: temporary protection of inventors / creators, so that progress happens and consumers get a good deal. Instead, HN is already aware how IP laws get abused. The effects of those abuses are felt largely outside the US: it allows the US to foster its economic and cult…

"The IP laws have been written by the US, for the US, and its terms keep on changing to continue protecting US interests."

What?

The US has only written IP laws in it's own jurisdiction. Europe, and other nations definitely write their own laws.

Nations make agreements with each other for their own benefit, for example, there is an IP section within the WTO.

If China, or anyone else, thinks they are better of without having IP laws - that's fine. Then nobody should respect their IP either.

The other problem is that China is part of the WTO and they are supposed to actually be doing one thing, but they are actually doing another ... i.e. they are out-of-bounds of their own treaties.

It was perfectly rational, in 1980's and 1990's for China to ignore IP laws, and interestingly - it was rational for the rest of us to allow them to do it.

But if you want a 'seat at the table' of major economies, that needs to change.

And it's in China's best interest to do so as well.

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#294

Post by sidstling » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 7:52 AM UTC

lgleason wrote: post #36

As much as some people here may hate Trump, the fact is that he was right when we said that it is difficult for us to lose a trade war with China since we import more from them than we export. Is there going to be some short term pain? Absolutely! But, long term it is likely to create more jobs in the US. As an extra bonus, there won't be as much of a carbon footprint for shipping things half way around the world and…

What have you won?

China running out of things to tax, doesn’t mean America has actually gained anything. America was stronger, but that doesn’t create jobs.

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#295

Post by nerbert » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 7:53 AM UTC

gonvaled wrote: post #227

pathseeker wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the favouring of US IP holders (as incumbents and head starters) You mean favoring the people that actually invented these things? I understand there isn't much of a notion of IP in China, but are you suggesting that it's unfair to not be able to copy IP and just manufacture without paying?

The IP laws have been written by the US, for the US, and its terms keep on changing to continue protecting US interests. The IP laws should be a trade-off: temporary protection of inventors / creators, so that progress happens and consumers get a good deal. Instead, HN is already aware how IP laws get abused. The effects of those abuses are felt largely outside the US: it allows the US to foster its economic and cult…

this comment provides very little data to back what you’re saying. The WTO's Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (TRIPS), negotiated during the 1986-94 Uruguay Round, introduced intellectual property rules into the multilateral trading system for the first time. This was before China entered the WTO. It made the choice to join nonetheless.

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#296

Post by sheepmullet » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 7:54 AM UTC

chowchowchow wrote: post #242

sheepmullet wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You’ve just provided a different way of saying there’s a winner and a loser. No I haven’t. Let me explain a bit more below. > Disenfranchisement !== losing, it’s being denied the ability to have your vote count the same as anyone else’s. > for the same candidate. Exactly! It’s a vote for the same presidential candidate regardless of whether you live in California or Ohio. Yet a Republican vote in California is mean…

I’m sorry but I thought the issue we were talking about was whether global winner-take-all, IE most votes cast in the country determines the winner, is disenfranchising compared to our current electoral college system.

> is disenfranchising compared to our current electoral college system.

I guess my point is we can enfranchise significantly more people than today without moving away from the electoral college.

Yet no state is seriously considering assigning their electoral votes proportionally.

I think that shows the people calling for the removal of the electoral college are playing politics and are only interested in it if it helps their side.

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#297

Post by yonkshi » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 7:54 AM UTC

gonvaled wrote: post #227

pathseeker wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the favouring of US IP holders (as incumbents and head starters) You mean favoring the people that actually invented these things? I understand there isn't much of a notion of IP in China, but are you suggesting that it's unfair to not be able to copy IP and just manufacture without paying?

The IP laws have been written by the US, for the US, and its terms keep on changing to continue protecting US interests. The IP laws should be a trade-off: temporary protection of inventors / creators, so that progress happens and consumers get a good deal. Instead, HN is already aware how IP laws get abused. The effects of those abuses are felt largely outside the US: it allows the US to foster its economic and cult…

I advise you to reflect on the bias of your own view points.

China has been pulling the same bullying tactics towards EU and S.Korea/Japan as well. IP transfer, forced partnership, etc. Notice how EU, South Korea and Japan haven't really been opposing this ordeal between China and US? They would also like to see China start playing fair, unfortunately there is very few economies can standup to China right now.

China has been quite the bully towards EU nations (though not EU as whole yet). Here in Sweden, China went on full on propaganda mode over some Chinese tourists being kicked out of a hostel, and this made it to the Chinese national news yesterday.

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#298

Post by sonnyblarney » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 7:55 AM UTC

pathseeker wrote: post #161

gonvaled wrote: post #74

Extremely one sided comments, with a US centric view. The world is not the US, and HN readers are not only US citizens, so let me express a different point of view. Assumption: Trump wants fair trade. HN readers want fair trade. What is needed: fair trading rules, fair IP rules, fair capital structures, and a fair currency. Tackling some of the unfair trade practices does not address all those issues. In particular i…

>the favouring of US IP holders (as incumbents and head starters) You mean favoring the people that actually invented these things? I understand there isn't much of a notion of IP in China, but are you suggesting that it's unfair to not be able to copy IP and just manufacture without paying?

"but are you suggesting that it's unfair to not be able to copy IP and just manufacture without paying?"

It's a perfectly legitimate approach for some situations. In the 1980's , 1990's it was actually a positive strategy for China to pay no mind to IP. And it was better for us as well because it was the easiest way to move them along at a quick pace. It's better for the 'rest of the world' to have a prosperous China, than a 'broke on it's back' China.

But at some point, it comes home to roost though - you can't 'catch up' to the big players without some kind of basic IP, so by becoming too entrenched in that kind of culture, they might limit themselves.

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#299

Post by sidstling » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 7:57 AM UTC

cromwellian wrote: post #269

What would happen if say, Foxconn no longer assembled phones? How would Apple, for example, recover their supply in any reasonable time? You can't just spin up that capability overnight. Seemed to me that if China wanted to amp this up and play hardball, they could just give Tim Cook a phone call and tell him they won't be making iPhones anymore. Estimates I've seen is that about 40% of Foxconn is Apple products. The…

In what world would you close a billion dollar income stream to “win”?

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#300

Post by sonnyblarney » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 7:59 AM UTC

simonh wrote: post #263

jayalpha wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese cheat all the time. - high subsidiaries for their exports - blind eye on IP theft - forced technology transfer - closed market for many industries and services - forced "joint ventures" for certain industries - legal system the favors Chinese companies - systematic attack on western industries Feel free to ask and I will give specific examples. Based on the kind of business relationship of the US and Chin…

I’m sure you are right that the Chinese cheat, but a fair and equitable free trade system must be based on rules and independent arbitration. Trump is doing everything he can to undermine and destroy every vestige of a rules based independently arbitrated global trade system. His policies are explicitly stated to be purely in US interests only, by him personally. That’s not the basis for a free trade system. Finger p…

" Trump is doing everything he can to undermine and destroy every vestige of a rules based independently arbitrated global trade system"

I'm sorry but China is flagrantly violating so many of it's own agreements. The IP agreements of the WTO for one.

There would be little fuss if China was sticking to it's own agreements.