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China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

nytimes.com

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Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#271

Post by samcheng »

cromwellian wrote: post #269

What would happen if say, Foxconn no longer assembled phones? How would Apple, for example, recover their supply in any reasonable time? You can't just spin up that capability overnight. Seemed to me that if China wanted to amp this up and play hardball, they could just give Tim Cook a phone call and tell him they won't be making iPhones anymore. Estimates I've seen is that about 40% of Foxconn is Apple products. The…

Foxconn is a Taiwanese company. Even though many of their factories are in China, the company also has factories across the world, with headquarters located free from Chinese government control.

It's also apparently the largest private employer in China. It seems like it's really easy to shoot yourself in the foot with this trade war stuff...

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#272

Post by pankajdoharey »

gonvaled wrote: post #74

Extremely one sided comments, with a US centric view. The world is not the US, and HN readers are not only US citizens, so let me express a different point of view. Assumption: Trump wants fair trade. HN readers want fair trade. What is needed: fair trading rules, fair IP rules, fair capital structures, and a fair currency. Tackling some of the unfair trade practices does not address all those issues. In particular i…

Man i am from India, at the same time you gotta call a spade a spade. US has been too liberal and gave a leeway to everyone to export goods to US without any tariffs. But every country Including my own puts a import tax on goods imported from the US. This isnt fair business, and US has actually lost a lot of money trying to be the leader in fair trade practice and globalisation. Other countries are just plain stealing and not ready to compete on fair grounds. Frankly i love Trumps tactic and i think all countries should embrace the same to balance the trade imbalance between China and the world.

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#273

Post by yxhuvud »

debacle wrote: post #65
SubiculumCode wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His trade war with China (and only China) is one of the few administration's positions I whole wholeheartedly support (as a economics dilettante, no expert).

Our "trade war" with Canada is a proxy trade war with China. Our "trade war" with Europe is, to a much more limited degree, a proxy trade war with China. A big part of the rationale with all of these little trade wars is to make China stand alone on the global stage, so that they are more easily negotiated with. A secondary effect is to eliminate "Made in $country" goods that are 90% manufactured in China and finishe…

This doesn't make sense - if you are doing trade war against everyone else, then the one standing alone will be you, not China.

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#274

Post by pankajdoharey »

gonvaled wrote: post #229
engi_nerd wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the US is past being "fair" with China, and I believe this is a very good thing. The Chinese are cheating in every arena with everything they've got, and being fair only plays into their hands.

The US has been cheating, bigger, better and longer. We seem to agree that this is not about fair trade, but that is what Trump is calling the whole thing.

Name one thing where US is cheating? US invents china steals that the only truth. Name one thing chinese have invented? Dont tell me gun powder, something latest.

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#275

Post by iforgotpassword »

teknologist wrote: post #267
dis-sys wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With all of the talk of how China is or is not playing fair, I feel like their internet bans get taken for granted, and I wish there was more pressure to play fairly there. In a fair environment, you'd be seeing Facebook/Google/Twitter used by hundreds of millions Chinese when most Americans paying their bills using Alipay and talk to their friends using WeChat. US dominance in tech is _NOT_ something called fair.

This is an amusing point of view. WeChat is really the worst messenger out there from a technical standpoint. No attempt encryption at all (who knows if they even use SSL?) and the stickers and social networking features still resemble 1st gen. messenger apps

uh, what? it has many more features than any western messenger. what makes it appeal less to western audiences is that it is precisely tailored to chinese taste/lifestyle, which is distinctively different.

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#276

Post by jayalpha »

simonh wrote: post #263
jayalpha wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese cheat all the time. - high subsidiaries for their exports - blind eye on IP theft - forced technology transfer - closed market for many industries and services - forced "joint ventures" for certain industries - legal system the favors Chinese companies - systematic attack on western industries Feel free to ask and I will give specific examples. Based on the kind of business relationship of the US and Chin…

I’m sure you are right that the Chinese cheat, but a fair and equitable free trade system must be based on rules and independent arbitration. Trump is doing everything he can to undermine and destroy every vestige of a rules based independently arbitrated global trade system. His policies are explicitly stated to be purely in US interests only, by him personally. That’s not the basis for a free trade system. Finger p…

I don't understand your argument. And if they Chinese tax US cars with 25% and the US taxes them with 2.5% (or was it 5%)? then it is reasonable to request equal tariffs.

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#277

Post by jayalpha »

teknologist wrote: post #264
jayalpha wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese cheat all the time. - high subsidiaries for their exports - blind eye on IP theft - forced technology transfer - closed market for many industries and services - forced "joint ventures" for certain industries - legal system the favors Chinese companies - systematic attack on western industries Feel free to ask and I will give specific examples. Based on the kind of business relationship of the US and Chin…

Another point is that companies manufacturing products in China can get tax deductions by hiring Chinese workers. Essentially rewarding companies for the exploitation of low paid workers and making the company more dependent on Chinese labour. It makes the threat of "do this for us or we'll shut down your China operations" that much more impactful.

The thing is, I can buy many products cheaper in the US than in China. This tells you something.

Due to this and fake products I buy clothes (YES, clothes!), shoes and electronic products only in the EU and the US.

Edit: Don't get me wrong. I love China. But many people now see only the strength of China. They have a strong culture. But it comes with many weaknesses. They once fell behind western culture. They may fail again if they don't fix some things. The downside risks here a HUGE.

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#278

Post by gonvaled »

pankajdoharey wrote: post #272
gonvaled wrote: post #74

Extremely one sided comments, with a US centric view. The world is not the US, and HN readers are not only US citizens, so let me express a different point of view. Assumption: Trump wants fair trade. HN readers want fair trade. What is needed: fair trading rules, fair IP rules, fair capital structures, and a fair currency. Tackling some of the unfair trade practices does not address all those issues. In particular i…

Man i am from India, at the same time you gotta call a spade a spade. US has been too liberal and gave a leeway to everyone to export goods to US without any tariffs. But every country Including my own puts a import tax on goods imported from the US. This isnt fair business, and US has actually lost a lot of money trying to be the leader in fair trade practice and globalisation. Other countries are just plain stealin…

US promoted free trade after WWII, when it was the last man standing and the only manufacturer. Free trade meant "we sell made in America all around the world". Leading by example meant opening their market, at no cost since nobody was in a position to export. The rationale was "open your markets as we do, and we will all get richer". But the real intent was to foster the dominance of American manufacturing

So we did. The whole world has been painfully opening markets for 70 years, and slowly, by finding cracks in the system designed to favor American interests, developing countries have indeed started to grow richer. Still poor compared to the US, but definitely better off.

Those open markets, designed by the US to export, have been used by two actors to import to the US:

- emerging markets (China, India, ...). This was the selling point of opening the markets, so this is perfectly fair

- US capitalists, trying to increase profits by moving production overseas and reduce costs. This is what is causing problems in the US, by losing jobs. This is a homegrown problem, and nothing the rest of the world should care about.

Basically, now that the world is starting to benefit from globalisation, after the US being the main beneficiary for over 50+ years, we somehow need to start caring about internal US problems.

I do not buy this.

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#279

Post by notabot »

teknologist wrote: post #266
chmod775 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even though the US are China's biggest trading partner, US trade "only" accounts for about ~18% of China's total trade. China is still trading with other countries. While it may take a hit from US companies pulling some manufacturing out of China, some of those will be replaced by other - both Chinese and foreign - companies. Especially other foreign companies operating in China will profit from reduced competition f…

> The US will have to bootstrap a lot of manufacturing to replace Chinese labor. Just abandon the H1B program and make it easier for foreign labour to come in to do the work. Problem solved.

Last time I checked Trump wasn't exactly a fan of immigrants either.

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#280

Post by snaky »

jayalpha wrote: post #277
teknologist wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another point is that companies manufacturing products in China can get tax deductions by hiring Chinese workers. Essentially rewarding companies for the exploitation of low paid workers and making the company more dependent on Chinese labour. It makes the threat of "do this for us or we'll shut down your China operations" that much more impactful.

The thing is, I can buy many products cheaper in the US than in China. This tells you something. Due to this and fake products I buy clothes (YES, clothes!), shoes and electronic products only in the EU and the US. Edit: Don't get me wrong. I love China. But many people now see only the strength of China. They have a strong culture. But it comes with many weaknesses. They once fell behind western culture. They may fa…

> I can buy many products cheaper in the US than in China

Would you list some examples of that products, please?

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