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China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

nytimes.com

181–190 of 385 posts

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#181
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The electoral college and winner-take-all are mutually exclusive ideas. Presently, the electoral college benefits rural voters (Wyoming and the like) by increasing vote value. Winner-take-all elections benefit urban voters by disenfranchising rural voters (every non-Democrat county in California).

This is a poorly drawn equivalence as the winner take all system doesn’t imbalance vote value like the electoral college does. IE you’re just saying winner takes all disenfranchises people who don’t vote for the winner which is a tautology.

> doesn’t imbalance vote value like the electoral college does

Of course it does - it imbalances them all the way to zero.

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#182
post #177
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trade doesn't really work like that. If I say buy a car off you it doesn't mean you've won and I've lost, just that we've done an exchange. If the government bans or taxes the exchange it probably just makes us worse off. Similarly with China trade there wasn't much of a problem till the stable genius decided to get worked up about things and it will probably cause both sides losses.

I don't see how you can claim there were no problems with trade before the tariffs, China outright bans far more American companies and classes of imports than the reverse.

TBH, I don't see why that's necessarily a problem.

Different countries have different laws, and they all forbid importing some stuff. China is stricter than us, so it stands to reason that we'll produce more products forbidden in their country than the other way around.

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#183
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also Foxconn could move ops back to Taiwan, albeit a bit expensive labor wise.

But still cheaper than the US. I don't see iPhones being made in the US anytime soon, there are many places in Asia other than China that would be higher up the list than the states.

I don't think any other Asia countries has same scale of labor, supply chain and infrastructure to manufacture the goods with tremendous demand like iPhone. It's not just cheap labor, it involves a whole manufacture ecosystem.

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't make much sense at all. Ruining goodwill and relationships (and of course trade) with YOUR MOST IMPORTANT ALLIES is certainly not just proxy economic warfare. The EU economy as a whole is bigger than either China or the US. Don't try to find a logic when there clearly is none. Trade war with EU and Canada might be the most unhelpful thing Trump has done.

> Trade war with EU and Canada might be the most unhelpful thing Trump has done. Actually it’s an incredibly smart culturally sensitive move - it allows the Chinese to save face. Instead of making it the West vs China the perception has been shifted to Trump trying to get fairer trade deals for the US even with close allies.

That is something to consider. Interesting. But anyone in the know knows that it is about China. And so, it is about saving face with the general public, not the technocrats.

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low skilled workers doesn’t accurately describe what China brings to the table currently. They effectively are the only place in the world you can source certain parts of the electronic supply chain at the volume currently necessary. They’ve been up the technical ladder for decades at the same time as other places have shed that capability. It would take a long time for Vietnam to come online. I’d guess Korea or Japa…

What is a dramatic price impact in the context of Apple products. 5%? 10%? Would that really stop you? They keep hiking the prices anyway.

for iPhone, maybe it's just 10%, what about the other staff you need to buy daily? Do you count how many staff you using are Made In China right now?

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point number two has been preoccupying my brain the last few months. Our system of electing presidents tend to hinge on several swing states, and in those states, a few key districts, and this means that our elections are vulnerable to foreign influence much more so than if, say, presidents were elected by popular vote. Protecting elections may mean ending winner take all electoral college system.

> Protecting elections may mean ending winner take all electoral college system. I think 2016 proved that the electoral college is not supplying the adult oversight that the founders intended.

That may or may not be, but in the end it is a different question than the one I raised. One might have an electoral college system without a state by state winner take all, which can lead to particular districts in particular states having outsized influence on the national election, and as such presents itself as a manageable target for foreign influence campaigns. This seems, to me, a national security risk that should be mitigated...and is much easier to mitigate than, for example, depending on efficient removal of foreign state-powered advertising campaigns.

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#187
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, there's nothing mystical about Shenzhen, and I'm sure it can be replicated elsewhere -- but on a decadal timeframe at best. There are many different factors which go into producing such an ecosystem. Raw number of STEM graduates is a very crude proxy, but it's probably as good as anything else for representing the "feedstock" of such an ecosystem, and gives an rough indication of how difficult the task might be…

This entire statement is predicated on STEM graduates being a proxy, but you provide no evidence that's the case. Building complex market ecosystems has very little to do with supply of STEM graduates. Having some supply is certainly a prerequisite, but there is no indication that the current supply rate is the prerequisite. I suggest you read the mythical man month, it illustrates the fallacious thinking behind thro…

I've read the Mythical Man Month, and it has no bearing on what I'm talking about here. The problem is that "building Shenzhen" isn't a "project", and never can be a "project". The key feature of an industrial ecosystem like this is its enormous diversity -- hundreds of thousands of companies, large and small, doing complementary and competitive and most importantly different things.

That is not something that can ever be matched by a monolithic "project". But it is something that absolutely requires large number of both bodies and brains. STEM graduates is, as I say, a poor proxy, but I can't think of a better one. Feel free to suggest.

(Hint: it isn't GDP or anything like that, otherwise China would never have been able to do this in the first place.)

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#188

This actually looks like the start of the disentanglement between the US economy and the Chinese economy. What will likely happens next (my best guess) is 1.) 40-60 percent of a company’s supply chain moves out of China 2.) China restricting the movement of capital/equipments out of China (similar to what happened with Korean companies last year) 3.) China growing homebrew competitors to the foreign companies leaving…

Even though the US are China's biggest trading partner, US trade "only" accounts for about ~18% of China's total trade. China is still trading with other countries. While it may take a hit from US companies pulling some manufacturing out of China, some of those will be replaced by other - both Chinese and foreign - companies. Especially other foreign companies operating in China will profit from reduced competition f…

"The US will have to bootstrap a lot of manufacturing to replace Chinese labor."

They just have to move to cheaper countries to replace Chinese labor. One time upfront asset cost, but lower expense over time.

"US trade "only" accounts for about ~18% China's total trade"

Once China is not part of the trade flow between US and X country (Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, etc), the total trade for China will fall even more than 18%.

"they can still manufacture goods intended for anywhere else in the world there - just not for the US"

US is the largest consumer market in the world. Japan is second at 1/3 of the size of US. EU consumer market is mostly fragmented. There is just not that much singular consumer demand outside of US. Plus other countries are enacting tariffs on China as well - India for example.

"Especially other foreign companies operating in China will profit from reduced competition for Chinese labor / manufacturing, encouraging them to move more manufacturing there."

There are lots of countries that have way cheaper labor costs than China, there's no reason for the foreign companies to go there in the face of increasing tariffs. Nike is 30% in Vietnam. Samsung is producing more of its phones in Vietnam. Uniqlo increased its presence in Vietnam by 40%.

"US companies will only withdraw in part from from China, since they can still manufacture goods intended for anywhere else in the world there "

Again, tariffs and cheaper labor costs elsewhere will entice companies to move out of China entirely. Not to mention the threat of Chinese government takeover of assets, or capital outflow restriction.

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Trade war with EU and Canada might be the most unhelpful thing Trump has done. Actually it’s an incredibly smart culturally sensitive move - it allows the Chinese to save face. Instead of making it the West vs China the perception has been shifted to Trump trying to get fairer trade deals for the US even with close allies.

That is something to consider. Interesting. But anyone in the know knows that it is about China. And so, it is about saving face with the general public, not the technocrats.

Sort of - Trump really does intend to get better deals on trade from our allies. It’s not a ruse to deceive the Chinese.

As such even the technocrats know the focus is only on China because they are the worst offender on trade.

It helps keep trade issues limited to trade.

Re: China Once Looked Tough on Trade. Now Its Options Are Dwindling

#190
post #180

This actually looks like the start of the disentanglement between the US economy and the Chinese economy. What will likely happens next (my best guess) is 1.) 40-60 percent of a company’s supply chain moves out of China 2.) China restricting the movement of capital/equipments out of China (similar to what happened with Korean companies last year) 3.) China growing homebrew competitors to the foreign companies leaving…

> This actually looks like the start of the disentanglement between the US economy and the Chinese economy. What will likely happens next (my best guess)... I agree with your conclusion but not your map; I see China investing and stepping up ag purchases from Brazil sub-saharan Africa; increasing the militarization of oil-producing countries, and exporting cheap products to Europe, Africa, South America and their sou…

"The US will be forced to pay more for everything"

I'm assuming your assumption is because China is taking over all of the resources/production capabilities around the world? I don't think that can even remotely happen. Again, lots of multinationals are already 30% in Vietnam, Malaysia, or India. Companies can source ag or oil from plenty of non-Chinese sources. The consumers have barely felt the supply chain shifts.

"The US is a manufacturing powerhouse, but its production is bipolar"

You would be surprised at how much reshoring and US factories automation have occurred in the last few years in US. It will increase in scope after this current round of tariffs.

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