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The European Union versus the Internet

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Re: The European Union versus the Internet

#151

Post by pbhjpbhj »

timrichard wrote: post #120
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to guess you're not from Europe based on that definition? The EU constrains companies to the benefit of individuals. It's not stopping people from hurting themselves, it's stopping them from being hurt by companies who have phenomenal power over us, more power in some ways than states themselves have.

There are over 30,000 [1] paid lobbyists in Brussels, and you think "the EU constrains companies to the benefit of individuals". And these latest outrageous copyright and link proposals are widely regarded to be for the benefit of certain German media magnates. Whatever criticism the EU attracts for its spending, the PR budget looks to be pretty good value. I'm really baffled by some of these perspectives. [1] https:…

Well take the Working Time Directive as an example; relative to my own government in the UK, the EU certainly appear to do more for the demos (with the possible exception of the current copyright directive; which I've not read the draft legislation on yet).

Re: The European Union versus the Internet

#152

Post by 13415 »

notemaker wrote: post #74
joshuakarjala wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3. No, you cannot serve any EU customers if there is not option to "opt out" of any unnecessary processing

The reality however, after GDPR was implemented, is 95% of the time GTFO or click accept.

...which means these sites are not GDPR compliant and might be fined heavily in future.

Re: The European Union versus the Internet

#153

Post by panzagl »

Semaphor wrote: post #54
panzagl wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US assumes people are capable of understanding things for themselves- my grocery store tracks my purchases in exchange for coupons and discounts, I feel it's worth it. FB holds my family's pictures hostage to show me ads, not worth it. Simple. The EU also seems to assume that if someone is making money, someone else is being damaged- that every economic exchange is unfair. I don't really think that's true- it's n…

> The EU also seems to assume that if someone is making money, someone else is being damaged How did you reach that conclusion?

Maybe I should be more specific to making money online- but nobody collects data that I didn't give them. The tone of EU laws is that instead they 'took' that data from me.

Re: The European Union versus the Internet

#154

Post by Nasrudith »

FactolSarin wrote: post #131
nybble41 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... and those countries have a right to implement those decisions for their people on the Internet ... No, they do not. One's natural rights do not disappear just because one happens to be living under a regime which fails to acknowledge them. When an American talks about the freedom of speech, they're talking about a right shared by every human being on this planet, not just the ones who happen to live in the USA.…

It's a matter of objective fact? Show me the experimental data that shows the American interpretation of freedom of speech is correct. Even Americans draw the line somewhere. For instance, the old "shouting fire in a theater." bit. Or, say, planning a murder. Other people decide to draw the line different places. Sorry, but claiming the American legal interpretation is "objective fact" and, say, the German one is wro…

Personally I think the crazy notion is that governments have rights. They are an embodiment of power. They need and have limits not rights. If the people stop the government from having an army - circumstances of the practicality of doing so aside its rights haven't been violated. It doesn't have any and the notion they do is absurd.

Even the transience property of personhood for corporations (regardless of one's opinion on the matter) doesn't apply to them for several reasons. Anyone with sufficient actually trivial resources can form a corporation. Forming your own government (in a non-parliment sense) is generally known as treason.

The people may have a right to self determination but that is a very big distinction.

Re: The European Union versus the Internet

#155

Post by chris_mc »

mjw1007 wrote: post #66
ObsoleteNerd wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's absolutely ridiculous. Is she going to let us listen in on all her private phone calls? Read all her emails? Please tell me this has no hope of passing...

It's a Ten-minute rule bill. Ten-minute rule bills have no hope of passing. You're welcome.

For the lazy folks who (initially) thought this was a 120x extension to the 5 second rule: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Minute_Rule

Re: The European Union versus the Internet

#156

Post by cortesoft »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #95
Joeri wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my view, in Europe there is a bigger pressure to value people/individuals over company/corporate interest and that's seems like the crux of the difference. I think it’s more about two different definitions of freedom. The U.S. defines it as the freedom to choose, where harmful outcomes are an accident of letting people freely choose. The E.U. sees it more as the freedom to live, where choices that harm quality of…

I'm going to guess you're not from Europe based on that definition? The EU constrains companies to the benefit of individuals. It's not stopping people from hurting themselves, it's stopping them from being hurt by companies who have phenomenal power over us, more power in some ways than states themselves have.

The freedom to conduct business is one of the core freedoms that Americans value. When Americans talk about freedom, they are including the freedom to form a business and create whatever business arrangements you want.

To American values, restrictions on how you do business are as infringing as restrictions on individual rights.

Re: The European Union versus the Internet

#157

Post by chris_mc »

octosphere wrote: post #15
netsec_burn wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised Tor usage hasn't skyrocketed.

Well we do know that Tor usage shot up after Snowden's revelations https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2015/5/186025-privacy-behavio... https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/tor-usage-doubles-snowden-ns...

Darknet markets had a huge boom around that time, too, which could also correlate. I think it's more likely the cause than Snowden, as I think more people care about drugs than privacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darknet_market#Silk_Road_and_e...

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=2013-01-01%202...

Re: The European Union versus the Internet

#158

Post by minitel »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #69

I will come out and say I don't agree with this portrayal of EU legislation being absurd. Time and again we're discussing what's wrong with the current web landscape: commoditization of content, leading into an attention economy with tracking and surveillance, and concentration of ad spend and most money to be made in the hands of very few players. If creators don't get their share of profits made using their works,…

> Now that the EU actually wants to do something about it, the law is being denounced as lobbied by big media, but, to the contrary, the current status quo only serves Google et al.

Do you think these regulations will make it more difficult for smaller companies to arise in any space where they are relevant?

If so, this legislation favors incumbents. It provides them with a nice little moat in the form of higher start-up costs.

The EU does not pass legislation out of the kindness of their hearts. There are lots of people in Brussels bargaining on behalf of clients who are first and foremost interested in the health of their businesses. Granted, there is a lot of feel good propaganda about "protecting the people."

As this site is a community centered on the creation of new companies it is normal that this legislation would be looked at negatively here. Since it will stifle small companies.

Re: The European Union versus the Internet

#159

Post by vukk »

mariushn wrote: post #123
Tharkun wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with the GDPR "success story" part of your comment. So far it's backfired entirely. The goal was to provide users with more control, and (from the standpoint of such a user) to reduce relentless personal data harvesting. That hasn't happened. What's happened is more annoying "we use cookies and track you"-banners all over the internet. As a user who doesn't use cookies, these damned things won't even go aw…

Same for offline businesses. Go to a bank, they'll ask your consent for handling personal data ("It's a GDPR law"). If you don't want to sign, they won't do business with you. No bank will. So, it's just one more paper to sign, and doesn't help the actual consumer. I would have expected more of "Don't send me any promotional/survey questions unless I opt in", or "Never share my data with 3rd parties, period".

Perhaps you should go read the thing, you might be positively surprised. The first thing you want is there, the second is a more complicated question. Sometimes some of your data is actually really needed, e.g. when required by the law. GDPR is a compromise: you have to state explicitly where the data is going and you better keep it safe, under the threat of a possibly hefty penalty.

This ^ is a shortened simplified statement. You can argue semantics or maybe that I'm just flat out wrong if you wish, but that'll mean you read the GDPR, a win in itself.

Re: The European Union versus the Internet

#160

Post by tensor »

Bjartr wrote: post #114
tensor wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it ok to say "you get a discount if you allow being tracked"? As a practical matter, these places need to earn money to exist, so either you get served ads or you pay directly. It's highly unreasonable to expect free service.

And the GDPR says "good riddance to you if you can only make money by tracking people without the tracking itself being part of your value to them". Not all business models deserve to succeed.

What? You can make money by charging people for it. Don't want to pay for newspapers for example? Without ads you can either pay up directly or not enjoy the publication.

I don't understand where this entitlement for free stuff comes from.

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