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Research shows that nearly every U.S. cell provider is doing throttling

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Re: Research shows that nearly every U.S. cell provider is doing throttling

#101

Post by joncrocks »

rayiner wrote: post #95
joncrocks wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine that you have a delivery service. You pay your local delivery company $X per month and they promise that they'll deliver you 1 package a day from their local depot. But it turns out that although you're ordering a package a day from Amazon, you're not receiving a package a day. You get your stuff, but it's delayed and backed-up somewhere. And so as an experiment you sign up for a service that will receive a p…

That’s just not how the Internet works and it’s never how it worked. This old article from Cisco (based on a 1999 book) explains that there can be various kind of business arrangements in an interconnected network: https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/about/press/internet-protocol-... . The article likens the situation to airlines, where multiple transit providers might be involved and where there may be complex fee sharing…

I was only trying to make the point that from the point of the view of the average consumer it's hard to know what it is that you're agreeing to pay for and what you're going to get. I understand the complexities involved.

You're sold a "XXXMb/s connection to 'the internet'", which people take to mean "XXXMb/s of the thing that I want, whatever that is" and not "XXXMb/s connection to the edge of the network, and then you get what you get given."

Re: Research shows that nearly every U.S. cell provider is doing throttling

#102

Post by tinus_hn »

nbhuik wrote: post #92
_red wrote: post #85

Research shows you should use the proper name: QoS The name "Throttling" is an attempt to frame this pejoratively. All ISPs of every type engage in bandwidth shaping / QoS. Its the laws of nature that enforce this (demand always is greater than supply of every resource).

Yes, it isn't particularly hard to figure out why they are throttling. Video services especially will take up all the bandwidth when they can and then annoy people when it inevitably gets downgraded again. For most people "speed" is "does my video load" and "does this file complete fast", not "4k everywhere". This should be fairly obvious for anyone who have even shared a connection with a couple of people. And unfor…

4K video is about 25MBit. If I have a faster than 25Mbit internet connection I should be able to watch 4K video. This should be fairly obvious. Oversubscription is the responsibility of the ISP and it is not an excuse.

Re: Research shows that nearly every U.S. cell provider is doing throttling

#103

Post by close04 »

nbhuik wrote: post #79
close04 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of throttling is done to squeeze more money from anything crossing their network. All ISPs want a piece of the pie so they will charge at both ends anything coming in and anything going out to you.

That is just how the Internet works. Everyone is selling and buying access to networks. Whether directly or in the form of agreements. And most people are of course trying to get more for less. One could certainly wish that things would be different, but it isn't like they are doing something especially nefarious.

Right... until you grandma can’t Skype with you because Microsoft didn’t pay the “decongestion” tax to that neighborhood IP she’s using or every ISP along the way.

Or when the firefighters get throttled because their unlimited data is consumed and your house goes up in smoke.

Re: Research shows that nearly every U.S. cell provider is doing throttling

#104

Post by lobsterloga »

joncrocks wrote: post #82
nbhuik wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is just how the Internet works. Everyone is selling and buying access to networks. Whether directly or in the form of agreements. And most people are of course trying to get more for less. One could certainly wish that things would be different, but it isn't like they are doing something especially nefarious.

Imagine that you have a delivery service. You pay your local delivery company $X per month and they promise that they'll deliver you 1 package a day from their local depot. But it turns out that although you're ordering a package a day from Amazon, you're not receiving a package a day. You get your stuff, but it's delayed and backed-up somewhere. And so as an experiment you sign up for a service that will receive a p…

That's not how Internet works. At all. Please stop spreading this misinformation.

Your post totally ignores peering agreements and interconnects that are key to understanding this issue.

Re: Research shows that nearly every U.S. cell provider is doing throttling

#105

Post by Nasrudith »

The physics limit is a misleading talking point that always comes up when justifying throttling and not providing what was promised. If physics were truly the limiting factor dense cities would have the worst data quality and rural areas the best. Instead cities have the best short of overwhelming events like tech conventions and disasters.

The cell footprints are adjustable. A localized network of smaller area cells can handle more people and data than one big tower which covers a broad area.

Reminds me of one Vice President of Verizon who visited and tried to bullshit classes of electrical and computer engineers about the end of unlimited data as a technical necessity. Competition intervened via I believe T-Mobile and suddenly it wasn't a problem although Wall Street got pissy about the decreased margins.

Re: Research shows that nearly every U.S. cell provider is doing throttling

#106

Post by close04 »

pas wrote: post #76
close04 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of throttling is done to squeeze more money from anything crossing their network. All ISPs want a piece of the pie so they will charge at both ends anything coming in and anything going out to you.

Can customers/subscribers of the ISP sue for damages? I guess the ISP has a pretty defensive ToS though. :(

No because the contract you have with them has no enforceable SLA and you can't really prove any damages.

Re: Research shows that nearly every U.S. cell provider is doing throttling

#107

Post by nbhuik »

tinus_hn wrote: post #102
nbhuik wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it isn't particularly hard to figure out why they are throttling. Video services especially will take up all the bandwidth when they can and then annoy people when it inevitably gets downgraded again. For most people "speed" is "does my video load" and "does this file complete fast", not "4k everywhere". This should be fairly obvious for anyone who have even shared a connection with a couple of people. And unfor…

4K video is about 25MBit. If I have a faster than 25Mbit internet connection I should be able to watch 4K video. This should be fairly obvious. Oversubscription is the responsibility of the ISP and it is not an excuse.

Not with wireless. That depends on geography, interference, temporary usage peaks etc. Much more variable, limited and costly than a "static" line.

Re: Research shows that nearly every U.S. cell provider is doing throttling

#108

Post by p49k »

rayiner wrote: post #95
joncrocks wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine that you have a delivery service. You pay your local delivery company $X per month and they promise that they'll deliver you 1 package a day from their local depot. But it turns out that although you're ordering a package a day from Amazon, you're not receiving a package a day. You get your stuff, but it's delayed and backed-up somewhere. And so as an experiment you sign up for a service that will receive a p…

That’s just not how the Internet works and it’s never how it worked. This old article from Cisco (based on a 1999 book) explains that there can be various kind of business arrangements in an interconnected network: https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/about/press/internet-protocol-... . The article likens the situation to airlines, where multiple transit providers might be involved and where there may be complex fee sharing…

It's still the responsibility of the ISP to deliver connectivity to other hosts on the internet at their promised speed, regardless what is necessary to do so or how it operates internally. That's the service that they are advertising to the consumer.

If UPS decided to change the way they internally route their packages, it doesn't mean that they can just brush off promised delivery dates because "it doesn't work how you think it does." I think that's the point the OP was making.

Re: Research shows that nearly every U.S. cell provider is doing throttling

#109

Post by MrEfficiency »

Nasrudith wrote: post #105

The physics limit is a misleading talking point that always comes up when justifying throttling and not providing what was promised. If physics were truly the limiting factor dense cities would have the worst data quality and rural areas the best. Instead cities have the best short of overwhelming events like tech conventions and disasters. The cell footprints are adjustable. A localized network of smaller area cells…

Tmobile has become Verizon screwing people over with claims of UNLIMITED, but in reality is just another marketing tactic.

Source:

Got throttled and couldnt load my school's website let alone upload a 500mb file.

Re: Research shows that nearly every U.S. cell provider is doing throttling

#110

Post by tinus_hn »

nbhuik wrote: post #107
tinus_hn wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4K video is about 25MBit. If I have a faster than 25Mbit internet connection I should be able to watch 4K video. This should be fairly obvious. Oversubscription is the responsibility of the ISP and it is not an excuse.

Not with wireless. That depends on geography, interference, temporary usage peaks etc. Much more variable, limited and costly than a "static" line.

Wireless is pretty cheap compared to wired, because you don’t need the wires and laying the wires is the expensive part.

If you can’t give people 25Mbit connections with your wireless technology, don’t sell them 25MBit connections.

But coincidentally typically the stuff where the ISPs have all these terribly difficult problems are the services that refuse to pay their extra fees. Kind of like what happens to restaurants that don’t pay the protection fee.

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