Nor glom of nit
Self-Driving Cars Can Handle Neither Rain nor Sleet nor Snow
161–170 of 340 posts
Re: Self-Driving Cars Can Handle Neither Rain nor Sleet nor Snow
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
The trolley problem is a tough one.
I've never understood why. I can't imagine any programmer or self-driving car company having any interest whatsoever in going down that particular rabbit hole. The answer is simple -- we don't expect humans to do realtime analysis of who is worth killing when an accident is happening, so we will not expect that of computers either. It's an unsolvable problem. So we just tell the computer that in the event that an acc…
And this kind of evaluation of one life against another is completely illegal in Germany. I.e. the german automotive industry legally can not make such systems in their automated cars and no cars operating in Germany can ave these systems either. I fully exect other countries to enact similar laws, if it ever becomes necessary.
Re: Self-Driving Cars Can Handle Neither Rain nor Sleet nor Snow
#163I wouldn't be surprised if these problems proved intractable enough that the solution will be adding electronic guides to the roads themselves.
Things like burying a wire that can be followed, embedding RFID devices in the pavement (along with an online database that gives their precise location and any updates on road conditions), etc.
It would be conceptually similar to all the ground based systems that guide aircraft.
Of course, these would be deployed only on high value roads like freeways first, and you could at least let the autodrive work on the freeways, and do the last mile yourself.
Re: Self-Driving Cars Can Handle Neither Rain nor Sleet nor Snow
#164Earlier quoted context omitted.
Those conditions sound like you wouldn't be driving. So, solved. Pull over and stop
I’d recommend visiting Finland. In these parts, there’s basically 3 months of optimal visibility. The rest is fog, rain, snow, sleet and road conditions that would shut down most of US. Yet people drive and do so safely. “What people can do” is a bit different from “what an average us driver can be expected to do”
It may be that regions with better climates receive these vehicles first. It's relatively straightforward to detect the prevalent conditions and refuse to drive if the weather is outside the scope for which the vehicle is rated. As the technology matures, that scope should broaden.
Re: Self-Driving Cars Can Handle Neither Rain nor Sleet nor Snow
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
E.g., going down hill in the winter commonly requires putting the transmission in neutral since just the torque to the drive wheels from the engine idling or the engine braking can overwhelm the very tiny traction available. There's a really short description for self-driving cars -- hyperhype.
What? I've been driving in the mountains in Canada for 15 years and have never heard of anybody doing this.
I do it every winter going down my driveway. Otherwise my tires would slide instead of roll; I'd lose directional control; my car from just some bump in the driveway could turn sideways; and I could roll upside down, over and over, the rest of the way down the driveway.
And I'm in two wheel drive and not 4 wheel drive because the extra torque it takes to turn the machinery for 4 wheel drive is too much for the poor traction.
I stop at the top of the driveway, make sure I'm in 2 wheel drive, hold the transmission selector so that I can get into neutral quickly and easily, just slightly get the car rolling, go for neutral, mostly just let the car roll down at most just touching the brakes very lightly or not at all, let the car get to the level, bottom of the driveway and a start on the back yard, and then stop the car, go into reverse, backup a little, and then take a left turn into the garage.
Losing directional control and having the car turn sideways and roll over is a big risk. The driveway is not very long, but it's steep.
Re: Self-Driving Cars Can Handle Neither Rain nor Sleet nor Snow
#166Earlier quoted context omitted.
Or most people. If it is actually blizzard conditions, one should have a very serious reason to be on the road. If not, stay at home instead of driving. Snow days are called for schools. Maybe work in general also?
In most places that have snow removal equipment “snow days” are actually called more frequently for cold. Leaving kids out in the cold is the issue. Driving in sbasic snow is a solved problem for humans in much of the world.
> Leaving kids out in the cold is the issue.
I live in Norway and beg to differ. We see temperatures down to -40 C in winter, and the kids love it. We don't have "snow days", it's literally not a thing here.
All you need is proper clothing, some seal fat for rubbing on your face, and cold weather experience among the adults (checking the kids faces for warning signs of frostbite, etc.).
95% of Norwegian babies and toddlers sleep outside in their prams (in sleeping bags) unless the temperature goes below -20 C. Then they come inside for sleeping, but will still be outside playing.
Re: Self-Driving Cars Can Handle Neither Rain nor Sleet nor Snow
#167Earlier quoted context omitted.
Snow tires are a big help for getting going. They are much less help for stopping.
This is so incorrect it hurts.
My point is clear if just consider a little of how snow tires work: The main point is the big bumps in the tread. These big bumps permit spinning drive wheels to dig down in the snow to find some traction, maybe the hard surface below. This digging down has the bumps grab a lot of snow and throw it back and out of the way and let the tires get down, through the snow into some traction. Ordinary tires just spin and throw far too little snow. Works great.
But in stopping, there is no such "spinning" or "digging". Instead, all the snow tires can do is roll or slide.
So, snow tires help a lot in going but not much in stopping.
Typically get into winter car wrecks from not stopping, not from not going.
So, once snow tires have you going, be darned careful about stopping -- the risk is not stopping, and snow tires aren't much help because the lugs don't get a chance to dig and throw snow.
Re: Self-Driving Cars Can Handle Neither Rain nor Sleet nor Snow
#168Earlier quoted context omitted.
> hydroplaning when there is over 1" of standing water on the road because it's coming down faster than gravity can drain it away? I'd say that's pretty calculable, and has a solution, slow down to a speed that the tires can shed water. Perhaps most telling about your qualification is the misplaced risk; the light precipitation with a little oil slick is likely more dangerous, mostly because you don't slow down for i…
Yes, it is trivial to calculate how to respond to known hazards. What is hard to calculate is what the hazards actually are in any given situation. Humans don't merely look at the road and compute how much standing water is there, they have prior experiences and a sense of what other drivers are doing on the road and why they are doing those things.
humans regularly get killed misjudging how much water is in underpasses, I guess an autonomous car based on detailed mapping can measure water deep quite better comparing sensor result with its map (eventually).
Re: Self-Driving Cars Can Handle Neither Rain nor Sleet nor Snow
#169Driving in dry / warm conditions is simple mechanics. Driving in snow and ice is an art. In snow and ice, variables that are typically constant or static become dynamic. Formally dynamic variables now become multi-variable equations. For example: travelling down a hill normally requires dynamically factoring for the extra speed due to the incline. Under blizzard conditions you have to factor ice/snow volume, as well…
E.g., going down hill in the winter commonly requires putting the transmission in neutral since just the torque to the drive wheels from the engine idling or the engine braking can overwhelm the very tiny traction available. There's a really short description for self-driving cars -- hyperhype.
I have always heard it in opposite; that it will be hard to brake & stop if in neutral as compared to if in appropriate gear.
Re: Self-Driving Cars Can Handle Neither Rain nor Sleet nor Snow
#170Driving in dry / warm conditions is simple mechanics. Driving in snow and ice is an art. In snow and ice, variables that are typically constant or static become dynamic. Formally dynamic variables now become multi-variable equations. For example: travelling down a hill normally requires dynamically factoring for the extra speed due to the incline. Under blizzard conditions you have to factor ice/snow volume, as well…
Yet electronic stability control[1] works far better than human control on snow, wet roads, or ice. If you don't believe it, try an obstacle course on an ice track with and without it sometime (a required part of driver's ed in Norway). Example: https://youtu.be/hd5JMQr4qe0?t=56s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control
Unscientific test. Give the human individual brake control (I can think of simple analog systems to do it).
I learned to drive on ice covered dirt roads, many times I would have liked to have the ability to asymmetrically brake. A simple 2nd order gimble would be awesome. Having a single symmetric pedal dumbs it down way too much to make a pre-programmed car vs human comparison.
Same thing goes for torque distribution.
It's generated dogma that pre-programmed devices can perform better than biological systems, so I bet my suggestion will be met with incredulity bordering on "y humans cant handle x".