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Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#861
post #650
post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is anyone really rallied to the cause by Linus himself? I think the product is the only real draw. With the exception of a select few that simply want to work with someone as high profile and legendary as Linus.

Personally, and maybe I’m in the minority when thinking this, but I can’t stand working with polite people. They not only slow down the progress of a project by often causing unneeded busywork, from simply not halting bad ideas, they often slow my learning progress down by not telling me I’m wrong. If you see something stupid, call it out. If I’m doing something stupid or say something wrong, call me out! There’s obv…

In the email Linus indicated that this is result of a confrontation with his community. They basically performed an intervention and he has accepted it.

The guy himself admits that something is seriously wrong, and for years he clearly has attacked people, personally, and folks have quit, and many have called him out for it.

This is a positive change. No need to convert it into an slam on politeness. It's not like the world is being overrun by well-meaning polite people being ineffectual. Assholes who don't know when to stop, on the other hand, that's a serious problem!

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#863

I think one has to be fair about what sort of asshole Linus is. He is not like Steve Jobs, Balmer and Gates who could be vindictive and get personal. For Linus it is more about being far too blunt. But you can clearly see Linus himself being aware of it and having some humbleness about it. Jobs in contrast would never admit his bad behavior. As a fellow Nordic (Norwegian) I feel a significant component of this is sim…

Have certainly experienced much more direct communication styles, e.g. in Holland, than are the norm in say UK.

I remember a seminar taught by US lady in Holland where at the end of the first day she said she had never experienced so much of what she perceived as aggression. We talked it through at the beginning of the second day and put most of it down to cultural differences.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#864

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure that "tearing someone's work apart" doesn't require "tearing the person apart / humiliating them"... and I suspect it's the former rather than the latter which is, in the right contexts, useful in learning / improvement.

Well said. You can tear the work apart if needed but don't get personal. Ever.

I found that a good way to do this is to try and guide the person's thoughts carefully towards the point that you are trying to make. The monent of realization that this hopefully creates is a strong teaching moment. And they tend to experience this as emotional high points themselves when they manage to take up your train of thought and complete it.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#865
post #808

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd bet people tend to cluster onto the line separating "agreeable and lax" and "rude but firm" (as a sweeping generality) Consider this: A third category of people who are able to accomplish their goals by rallying others to their cause. They are essentially imposing their will on others, but are able to do it in a way that is not "rude." This is called charisma. - "Agreeable and lax"... you allow them to paint the…

Those thing are not mutually exclusive. You can be both Charismatic and Rude. Many people are happily following Linus' directions. Sometime he enforces those directions rudely, which drives some people away. It also prevents crappy patches from stubborn contributors from going through.

Totally. I've always felt that's the price for having the Linux kernel be what it is today. Just imagine what kinds of shit would get merged into the kernel if it was run by a council of submissive, overly-polite people with soft handshakes.

I always considered certain kinds of programming to be like smithing on a hot forge: If you can't handle the occasional burn, then it's not for you. I mean this idea is not even a little bit controversial when it's about tangential things, for example people that are unable to work with tight deadlines in stressful situations. Either you can do it, or you can't. Nobody would reasonably suggest changing the market or the business model to accommodate. Because you can't reasonably suggest that, because reality just doesn't work that way. We can only get a Linux kernel of the caliber we have today by using a hot forge. Now it's certainly true that some good ideas will be deflected in these kinds of environments -- just as happens in all environments -- but nobody would reasonably suggest that any kind of environment could achieve perfect meritocratic efficiency, either. Because it's not possible to do that anymore than it's possible to make financial markets less stressful places to work with looser deadlines. This is a roundabout way of saying that this (and everything like it) boils down to innate competitive humanity and as we all know, when it comes to anything that involves more than one person, you can't make everyone happy all the time.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#866
post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He clearly can separate the blunt stubbornness ("we do not break userland, period") For what it's worth, he doesn't even avoid breaking userland. Off the top of my head, we had a problem at work a few months back where kernel 4.3 and below rounded up listen(fd, 0) to something nonzero, kernel 4.4 didn't, and a piece of commercial software was (inexplicably) using listen(fd, 0). https://ldpreload.com/blog/git-bisect…

> "we do not break userland, period" That quote is more accurately read as, "we change things all the time, including user-visible features, and very occasionally, even in breaking ways -- but only because it's impossible to know every single consumer of every single quirk in behavior, and as soon as we learn that one of our changes did in fact break userspace, then we'll change it back". It's how the kernel communit…

So the quote should rather read "don't break the actual userland out there" instead of "any conceivable userspace"?

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#867

I think one has to be fair about what sort of asshole Linus is. He is not like Steve Jobs, Balmer and Gates who could be vindictive and get personal. For Linus it is more about being far too blunt. But you can clearly see Linus himself being aware of it and having some humbleness about it. Jobs in contrast would never admit his bad behavior. As a fellow Nordic (Norwegian) I feel a significant component of this is sim…

I agree, he seemed to only get personal when he knew the developer, and it seemed like it was mainly because he knew that they knew better, but were still submitting bad patches anyway. I still remember seeing an email response to someone who was just starting college and was telling Linus that he thought the way they were using spinlocks in the kernel was wrong. Linus knew they didn't know any better, so he didn't insult them, and went into a lengthy email about why they were doing things the way they did, and how the student's professor had taught them wrong.

Even though Finns can be much more blunt than people are used to, I think he recognized a while ago that he was going beyond being blunt. During a conference in Australia, someone asked him about how people perceived his attitude and it's effect on the kernel community. He told them that he's not a nice person, he doesn't know why people think he would be, and that if people enter the community with that in mind, they'll stop feeling like they're being personally attacked.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#869

I think one has to be fair about what sort of asshole Linus is. He is not like Steve Jobs, Balmer and Gates who could be vindictive and get personal. For Linus it is more about being far too blunt. But you can clearly see Linus himself being aware of it and having some humbleness about it. Jobs in contrast would never admit his bad behavior. As a fellow Nordic (Norwegian) I feel a significant component of this is sim…

> For Linus it is more about being far too blunt.

Here is an example that I believe is more than just "being far too blunt"[0], it's not the worst example I can remember but it is the first one I found. In my opinion his major issue is that he grandstands, he goes beyond being just blunt and becomes unnecessarily derogatory. If his issue was with being too blunt (and I suspect you'll find that most people don't consider being too blunt to be that much of an issue compared to his other faults) that email would look something like this:

> The conflict I get is due to stupid new gcc header file crap. But the > reason I'm rejecting this is that I just don't think it brings in any > positive value.

> This is the old code in net/ipv6/ip6_output.c:

> mtu -= hlen + sizeof(struct frag_hdr);

> and this is the new "improved" code that uses fancy stuff that wants > magical built-in compiler support and has silly wrapper functions for > when it doesn't exist:

> if (overflow_usub(mtu, hlen + sizeof(struct frag_hdr), &mtu) || > mtu goto fail_toobig;

> The above code generates shit code

>

> and it's a lot more difficult for people to read.

> The code could easily have been done with just a single and > understandable conditional, and the compiler would actually have > generated better code, and the code would look better and more > understandable.

>

> Why is this not

> if (mtu goto fail_toobig; > mtu -= hlen + sizeof(struct frag_hdr);

> which is the same number of lines, doesn't use helper functions that > most people are unfamiliar with, and is much more obvious what it > actually does.

> The second more obvious version is easier to read and understand. Does > anybody disagree with this?

> Obviously you still could have overflow issues if the whole "hlen + > xyz" expression overflows, but the "overflow_usub()" code had that > too. So if that's the reason that this change was introduced then > it hasn't actually fixed anything.

> I really do feel like this code was designed to use that > new "overflow_usub()" code, it seems to be an excuse to use that > function. Am I missing something here?

> Just to be clear I will always try to make sure that code which offers no > positive value does not make it into the code base, regardless of where > in the code it's being added.

> Linus

This is still just as blunt (I do think this would be more effective if it wasn't as blunt, I just wanted to try to show that being blunt wasn't the main issue), but it doesn't have the unnecessary grandstanding and derogatory comments. The main problem with the was Linus used to conduct himself is that he puts people on the defensive, and when people are on the defensive they have a much harder time admitting that they were wrong or learning anything.

I don't actually expect Linus to come back any less blunt, I expect him to come back less aggressive and derogatory.

[0]: http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1510.3/02866.html

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#870

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

I'd bet people tend to cluster onto the line separating "agreeable and lax" and "rude but firm" (as a sweeping generality) Consider this: A third category of people who are able to accomplish their goals by rallying others to their cause. They are essentially imposing their will on others, but are able to do it in a way that is not "rude." This is called charisma. - "Agreeable and lax"... you allow them to paint the…

I'm finding it hard to think in these categories. The success of Linux is down to something Linus does and/or gets right. Even more fascinating, it might not be down to anything about him but the product he first created. So, anyone might claim "charisma" for getting the wall to be painted in their choice color but the painters just wanted a painted wall, and regardless of the attitude of the wall builder they were going to paint it.
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