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Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#851

Post by angry_octet »

staticassertion wrote: post #308

I feel like anyone who says "Linus was harsh but fair" never really read much of what Linus said. Many of his attacks, especially long ago, were quite vitriolic and very much not technical. Oftentimes they weren't rants, just flat out insults, short and mean (I remember, in particular, posts directed towards PaX). They weren't productive, there wasn't a brash technical take buried in them - they were just insults. Ma…

I never understood the vitriol, because he could have just said they weren't up to spec. And when people don't fix bugs, just suspend taking their patches and say that.

In the case of PaX, there is definitely a conflict between the later commercial concept (pay to receive these patches to a GPL2 product) and the integration of security features in a comprehensible way in mainline. Brad Spengler is right that big corporations use his work for no recompense (gotta love the cancer that is Oracle), but tbh many of the patches are hard to grok. And Linus had a ridiculous 'security bugs are just bugs' attitude, opposed to the additional complexity added in some patches. I think many of the mitigation techniques are painful and have ramifications on many other areas -- but the larger redesign just wasn't being done. And they are both ascerbic individuals.

I thought his rants directed at Kees Cook were worse. He is allowed to reject everything insufficiently tested, so why doesn't he just do that? Anyway, Kees was a model of restraint.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#852

Post by quantummkv »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #106

The other huge news here, both for Linux and for numerous other communities trying to make similar changes: The most recent commit, right before the release, deletes Linux's "Code of Conflict" and replaces it with a real Code of Conduct, the Contributor Covenant. https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/lin... https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-condu... Quoting the commit message:…

It's a good practice to have some concrete guidelines regarding work environment. But this particular code of conduct is pure and utter garbage. I'm really not sure how Linus could ever willingly accept this.

> Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting

This statement here from the CoC is pretty much an open invitation to send whoever you don't agree with to the gulag/camp/whatever. What concrete definition is there of "reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting"? These change across cultures and countries. Linux is a global effort. Not everyone on the planet follows the silicon valley, American or any single culture.

You either have fixed and clear guidelines on what is acceptable or not, or have no guidelines at all. Something open ended like this is nothing more than a potential witch hunt in the making.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#853

Post by madmulita »

marmot777 wrote: post #734
mindways wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure that "tearing someone's work apart" doesn't require "tearing the person apart / humiliating them"... and I suspect it's the former rather than the latter which is, in the right contexts, useful in learning / improvement.

Well said. You can tear the work apart if needed but don't get personal. Ever.

You mean, the work and the person are completely unrelated?

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#854

Post by Bender »

JohnBooty wrote: post #476
jakeinspace wrote: post #257

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

I'd bet people tend to cluster onto the line separating "agreeable and lax" and "rude but firm" (as a sweeping generality) Consider this: A third category of people who are able to accomplish their goals by rallying others to their cause. They are essentially imposing their will on others, but are able to do it in a way that is not "rude." This is called charisma. - "Agreeable and lax"... you allow them to paint the…

I personally like calm, rational logical inspirational leaders. I would like the fictional Captain Picard! Those are very hard to find.

In my humble opinion, I believe you will find a lot of disagreement on methodologies throughout this thread as some folks are introverts, some extroverts and a wide range in between. Each person here will have had their own personal experiences that were a result of a mix of personality types. If we just go by Jung, that's a matrix of 16 types. The possibilities and interactions are quite extensive.

I believe that each org filters down their group to a certain mix of personalities that are tolerable (cultural fit). The more critical someone is, the slightly more that people will tolerate in exchange for what they contribute.

I suppose what I am suggesting is that there is no single form of leadership that is entirely optimal in any org. The mix of personalities can block rational discussion. There are some websites where people discuss the toxic results in their org.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#855

Post by serversystem »

crdoconnor wrote: post #787
supernovae wrote: post #686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever worked with brilliant assholes? It sucks the life out of you - and it really sucks when they get idolized and rewarded heavily. It creates a vicious cycle of absurdity - the one where people appease the anger to try and achieve some good not realizing how much the bad influences the culture of the movement/organization/group. No one is perfect, but the community for far to long treated an imperfect man…

>Have you ever worked with brilliant assholes? It sucks the life out of you There's a vast difference between a "Steve Jobs type asshole" and a "Linus type asshole". The rants I read from Steve Jobs were all petty, domineering and often arbitrary. The rants I read from Linus were (mostly) about senior developers who tried to defend broken designs and breaking simple, well thought out rules. They were entirely predict…

Unfortunately most of the world loves Jobs kind of jerks and hates Linus kinds.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#856

Post by shard972 »

marmot777 wrote: post #734
mindways wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure that "tearing someone's work apart" doesn't require "tearing the person apart / humiliating them"... and I suspect it's the former rather than the latter which is, in the right contexts, useful in learning / improvement.

Well said. You can tear the work apart if needed but don't get personal. Ever.

How can you produce good work if you never improve yourself? If going personal can improve someone and then improve their work, whats the argument again that we shouldn't go personal?

Hurt feelings?

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#857

Post by shard972 »

DannyBee wrote: post #288
serf wrote: post #142

I'm probably going to be alone in saying so, but I always enjoyed Linus and his attitude. (to me) it made him appear honest and dedicated to (his own) goals, and I always felt like that was respectable. (mostly) whenever he was proven technically wrong about how to do something he would concede to the technically better solution, and if he didn't do so he gave reasons for his conclusion. in other words : his technica…

"in other words : his technical brilliance, in my own opinion, was a far larger boon than the problems stemming from having to deal with his knife-like personality." One thing that is true in all successful organizations over time is that for any given person, no amount of genius will make up for being an asshole. It may take time, etc, but eventually, it ends up a significant net negative for the organization. The s…

> One thing that is true in all successful organizations over time is that for any given person, no amount of genius will make up for being an asshole.

Like Apple?

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#859

Post by jdmichal »

olavk wrote: post #790
nomel wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, and maybe I’m in the minority when thinking this, but I can’t stand working with polite people. They not only slow down the progress of a project by often causing unneeded busywork, from simply not halting bad ideas, they often slow my learning progress down by not telling me I’m wrong. If you see something stupid, call it out. If I’m doing something stupid or say something wrong, call me out! There’s obv…

So you are equating politeness with not halting bad ideas. That is not politeness, that is incompetence. Competent people would halt bad ides, but it can be done in different ways: - Abrasive: This idea is the dumbest ever and you are an idiot that deserves to die. - Constructive: This idea have problems X, Y and Z. - Polite: Thank you for the effort, but I see problems X, Y and Z with the idea in its current form. A…

Your "polite" has moved way too far into manipulative / passive-aggressive with weasel words like "I see" and "in its current form". If you are in a position of power like Linus, where your perception is the project's reality, couching such realities as if your perception is the only problem will lead to fights and a lot more resentment. Just saying, "Thanks, but I won't accept this until X, Y, and Z are corrected," is still polite, but also gives a clear course of action for the recipient. And yes, some people read directness as rudeness. You can't help them.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#860

Post by Terretta »

JohnBooty wrote: post #476
jakeinspace wrote: post #257

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

I'd bet people tend to cluster onto the line separating "agreeable and lax" and "rude but firm" (as a sweeping generality) Consider this: A third category of people who are able to accomplish their goals by rallying others to their cause. They are essentially imposing their will on others, but are able to do it in a way that is not "rude." This is called charisma. - "Agreeable and lax"... you allow them to paint the…

> "A third category of people who are able to accomplish their goals by rallying others to their cause. They are essentially imposing their will on others, but are able to do it in a way that is not "rude." This is called charisma... does not necessarily imply dishonesty or trickery; arguably, the most charismatic people might be those that are true believers"

I find it helpful to distinguish between charisma and presence.

Charisma can be on the surface, think marketing. Pop biz lit tends to focus on this aspect.

Presence comes from within, confidence from mastery grounded in centeredness and integrity.

This distinction comes from Scouller's "The Three Levels of Leadership", 2011.

See the synopsis on "Attitude towards others" here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_levels_of_leadership_mod...

Then the discussion on "Leadership Presence":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_levels_of_leadership_mod...

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