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The Bezos backlash: Is 'big philanthropy' a charade?

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Re: The Bezos backlash: Is 'big philanthropy' a charade?

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps not a universally correct one, but most probably a sufficiently accurate one, given Amazon's continued revenue growth. This is similar to the chronological vs. algorithmic timeline debates in social media: it's annoying to many users, but the overall result must be positive, otherwise they probably wouldn't be doing it, in face of the backlash.

If the trends continue over a period of several years, that may prove to be true. Anecdotally, I am far from alone among my friends and family in perceiving that Amazon's quality, reliability and customer service have degraded sharply in recent years. It's not just the counterfeits issue. Their basic product organisation is terrible these days, and it's often difficult to figure out if I'm ordering the correct editio…

Isn't everything you describe rather demonstrating the point though?

A business that is large enough to generally not care any more. To not care about the fakes, the deliberately poor search that promotes crap every single time, the increasingly hostile policies, the increasingly hostile way things are offered. The promotion of horrible ideas like "global store" that will hold some indeterminate amount in anticipation of customs fees and intl delivery, but not let you exclude it from all search and choose local products only.

No business that felt customer reactions actually mattered would do the things you describe intentionally with the possible exception of pricing (and Amazon should be able to be cheapest most of the time).

These are all styles of doing business prior to a major readjustment. Tesco before the recession and before they lost a chunk of customers to Lidl and Aldi - half of whom will never go back as they discovered that Aldi are better than Tesco as well as cheaper.

Personally I already reached a point where Amazon are way down the list of choices to shop from.

Amazon's time will come, but right now they, or perhaps just Bezos - who knows, don't believe it will.

Re: The Bezos backlash: Is 'big philanthropy' a charade?

#62

"Matt Kilcoyne, of the free market think-tank the Adam Smith Institute, disagrees. "Quite frankly Bezos's greatest act of philanthropy is Amazon itself," he argues. "Lower prices, more choice and competition have delivered billions for Bezos and billions worth for the hundreds of millions of customers he serves." " I do think feel strong about Bezos plans, but it's a bit of a stretch to claim Amazon is a public good.…

>> more choice and competition

What competition?

Re: The Bezos backlash: Is 'big philanthropy' a charade?

#63
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you believe that commerce is a goal in itself, and that building a successful business contributes positively to the world by default (I'm sure many people do believe this so just getting it out of the way), then you have to look at the outputs. For Amazon that's largely: - extremely poor pay and conditions for Amazon's workers - dominance driving smaller less-efficient enterprises out of business; this isn't…

I'm curious, did any company ever contributed overall to a society in your opinion? "extremely poor pay and conditions for Amazon's workers" Where should Amazon magically create this money from? It can only come at the expense of customers. "so typically Amazon is unlikely to be a net job-creator." That's a net positive. Less work, the same job done. Making more work is easy, just let people throw rocks from one pile…

> I'm curious, did any company ever contributed overall to a society in your opinion?

Yes. The issues I'm raising are largely to do with some extremely large companies.

> Where should Amazon magically create this money from? It can only come at the expense of customers.

Are you saying that no company pays their employees enough? Or that employees in general shouldn't be paid a living wage? Or even that Amazon, a company headed by the actual richest person in the world, really makes zero profit and must absolutely hurt customers in order to make ends meet?

> That's a net positive. Less work, the same job done.

Less jobs is a positive* only if those without jobs have a living income. UBI is a proposed solution: it hasn't been introduced anywhere as far as I'm aware.

> Making more work is easy, just let people throw rocks from one pile to the other and back again.

And who pays these rock throwers? Do their wages come from the taxes Bezos doesn't pay?

* EDIT: To be clear, on the less jobs question, I am generally not in favour of having a less efficient system just to create jobs (it may sound that way above). I'm just a realist, acknowledging that we have a system that requires job-creation as a means to supply members of society with the means to sustain themselves. If we did not require job-creation to do that, I would completely agree that "less work, the same job done" would be a positive thing.

Re: The Bezos backlash: Is 'big philanthropy' a charade?

#64
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One person should not choose where and to what social services need funding. That's why we have government and not kings and queens.

One person should not choose where and to what social services need funding. That's why we have government and not kings and queens. I think that would be a more compelling argument if our governments had a stronger democratic mandate and our political systems offered the people genuine choices in how money was being spent on their behalf. Looking at what's been happening in places like the US and UK recently, I'm no…

US and UK should be using other governments as examples that get it right.

The answer to your problem is most definitely not to reduce taxes and Let billionares decide what goes where.

Re: The Bezos backlash: Is 'big philanthropy' a charade?

#65
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Way more people benefited from Amazon. It's cheaper. It set a new standard in delivery times and customer support. Its existence improved life of millions of people by significant margin. That old industry got killed is natural when progress happens.

That people benefited from internet shopping and delivery is not a defense of a company treating it's workers badly or evading paying taxes. Let's not pretend amazon is the only company that might have delivered those efficiencies, they were just the most successful, the most ruthless.

You can't expect companies to fight for greater good and sacrifice their interests for the overall good. In fact it's against the law for them to do that. Amazon hires a lot of people and in many countries pay reasonably well. With taxes it does what the law allows.

If you want to change those things start with changing the law, ending policies hurting the working class (limiting low skill migration would be the first step) and getting rid of ridiculous taxes like corporate income tax you claim Amazon dodged (while in fact it pays what the law requires it to pay).

Blaming the player for playing the game well while taking care of what they are legally obliged to do (shareholder value) is neither smart nor constructive.

Re: The Bezos backlash: Is 'big philanthropy' a charade?

#66

"Matt Kilcoyne, of the free market think-tank the Adam Smith Institute, disagrees. "Quite frankly Bezos's greatest act of philanthropy is Amazon itself," he argues. "Lower prices, more choice and competition have delivered billions for Bezos and billions worth for the hundreds of millions of customers he serves." " I do think feel strong about Bezos plans, but it's a bit of a stretch to claim Amazon is a public good.…

>> more choice and competition What competition?

For many products on Amazon, there are several sellers, each competing for the "buy box". Third party sellers are not an unalloyed good, but on balance are good for Amazon shoppers, IMO.

Outside of Amazon, Amazon has helped to set new standards for online commerce (free shipping, fast shipping, no/few questions customer service). When you see Zappos (now Amazon), Jet, Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes, and Ebay all mimicking aspects of the Amazon shopping experience, you're also seeing increased competition. It also has effects on brick and mortar commerce that are beneficial for consumers. Some stores match Amazon prices in the walk-in stores.

It has absolutely taken margin out of the retail industry, making it harder on retailers, but so long as they don't fail in droves, margin leaving the industry is money that's being returned to consumers, at least in part.

Re: The Bezos backlash: Is 'big philanthropy' a charade?

#67
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, did any company ever contributed overall to a society in your opinion? "extremely poor pay and conditions for Amazon's workers" Where should Amazon magically create this money from? It can only come at the expense of customers. "so typically Amazon is unlikely to be a net job-creator." That's a net positive. Less work, the same job done. Making more work is easy, just let people throw rocks from one pile…

> I'm curious, did any company ever contributed overall to a society in your opinion? Yes. The issues I'm raising are largely to do with some extremely large companies. > Where should Amazon magically create this money from? It can only come at the expense of customers. Are you saying that no company pays their employees enough? Or that employees in general shouldn't be paid a living wage? Or even that Amazon, a comp…

> Are you saying that no company pays their employees enough?

Companies pay enough to get the quality and quantity of employees that they need. Those who are coming up short on either side are the companies who are (presumably) not paying their employees enough.

> Or that employees in general shouldn't be paid a living wage?

In general, my answer is "null" here, as the definition of living wage is continually (and it seems to me, intentionally) slippery/non-specific. Make some definitions that are stable over a long period of time and that labor advocates agree to, and only then can we have a conversation.

> Or even that Amazon, a company headed by the actual richest person in the world, really makes zero profit and must absolutely hurt customers in order to make ends meet?

Amazon does not hurt customers overall. I suspect you either meant to say employees, or perhaps have introduced a new argument that I'm not following.

With respect to profit, Amazon is now profitable on a GAAP, EBITDA, and cash flow from operations basis. I believe that was always the plan and it's coming together now.

Whether or not a company is profitable and whether or not the founder is the richest man in the world does not feedback into an employee pay issue in my opinion. A profitable company can afford to pay its employees for longer, but has no obligation (legally or ethically) to pay them more, IMO.

Re: The Bezos backlash: Is 'big philanthropy' a charade?

#68
post #24

Well, even though he made more than 1000x than most people, Bezos is probably not 10x smarter by any reasonable metric, and certainly doesn't work 10x more than the rest of us. It's clearly a choice we all made as a society that allows him to have all this money. The question is: would we have an Amazon without people who are driven by money? Of course we can never know, but if we look at the past, where a large amou…

When you say "let society take care of it", who exactly do you mean?

It's a cowardly way of saying "I want that guy's money, but am too weak to take it myself".

The fundamental problem with such redistribution schemes is: Who gets to decide who's weak and who's the villain?

Certainly each individual knows for themselves; typically a variation on "I'm weak; give me". But coming up with stable, fair valuations for social contribution is a hard problem. For example, we already know that centralized, committee-driven solutions are deadly in the long run.

Re: The Bezos backlash: Is 'big philanthropy' a charade?

#69
From the Carnegie quote:

> "The man of wealth thus becoming the sole agent and trustee for his poorer brethren," he wrote, "bringing to their service his superior wisdom, experience, and ability to administer - doing for them better than they would or could do for themselves."

How does wisdom about running a business translate into wisdom how other people should live their life?

Re: The Bezos backlash: Is 'big philanthropy' a charade?

#70

"Matt Kilcoyne, of the free market think-tank the Adam Smith Institute, disagrees. "Quite frankly Bezos's greatest act of philanthropy is Amazon itself," he argues. "Lower prices, more choice and competition have delivered billions for Bezos and billions worth for the hundreds of millions of customers he serves." " I do think feel strong about Bezos plans, but it's a bit of a stretch to claim Amazon is a public good.…

Free market think-tank says free market is good. More on this breaking story as it happens.
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