Earlier quoted context omitted.
> ”I'll take an asshole over a pushover any day“ This is a false dichotomy. There’s no need to be an asshole to not be a pushover.
Actually, it isn't. For example in today's environment when someone suggests something stupid, it is no longer acceptable to say "this seems stupid to me" because it might hurt someone's feelings. So instead you walk it back and say things diplomatically (which is a tiny form of a white lie). Then people reply to your diplomatic statement with another diplomatic statement, and pretty soon nobody is saying the thing t…
Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
741–750 of 1001 posts
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#742Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are plenty of people who can deal with a rational explanation about why they are wrong, but who are not able to deal with being bullied. As I wrote in a different comment in this thread: I would never consider contributing to the kernel because of the chance (minute as it may be) of getting the Linus-of-old treatment.
Use of the word "bully" here is concept creep. Bullying is a sustained pattern of targeted verbal or physical aggression. A person insulting your work is not "bullying" unless they're doing it in a targeted, continuous way in order to get at you personally. It's just "insulting". More on why you should not be using concept creep: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/04/concept...
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#743Earlier quoted context omitted.
Actually, it isn't. For example in today's environment when someone suggests something stupid, it is no longer acceptable to say "this seems stupid to me" because it might hurt someone's feelings. So instead you walk it back and say things diplomatically (which is a tiny form of a white lie). Then people reply to your diplomatic statement with another diplomatic statement, and pretty soon nobody is saying the thing t…
"Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untravelled, the naive, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too we…
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#744Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…
I'd bet people tend to cluster onto the line separating "agreeable and lax" and "rude but firm" (as a sweeping generality) Consider this: A third category of people who are able to accomplish their goals by rallying others to their cause. They are essentially imposing their will on others, but are able to do it in a way that is not "rude." This is called charisma. - "Agreeable and lax"... you allow them to paint the…
The distinction can be quite hard and might take some time.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#745Newton was an asshole too. The whole "apple fell on his head" story came about because he was so mean to people. I won't say that most geniuses are inempathetic, but many are. Einstein wasn't, some say Gauss was. Beethoven was. Linus is. And we'll accept Linus's attitude for being an aversion to bullshit, just the quality that we need in a kernel maintainer. I'm glad to see that Linus finally realizes that he has a p…
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#746Folks, I understand that some of us have itchy scars, but can't we please take "yes" for an answer? This is seriously good news for the Linux community, and the wider Open Source industry.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#747Earlier quoted context omitted.
Actually, it isn't. For example in today's environment when someone suggests something stupid, it is no longer acceptable to say "this seems stupid to me" because it might hurt someone's feelings. So instead you walk it back and say things diplomatically (which is a tiny form of a white lie). Then people reply to your diplomatic statement with another diplomatic statement, and pretty soon nobody is saying the thing t…
I totally agree with this. I actually quit my job at Red Hat because of the culture of non-criticism. I kept getting in trouble for pushing back against stupid decisions, even though I never insulted a single person. For example: When the design team added 10MB of web fonts to the app, I said something like, "Users don't care whether the font is Open Sans or Arial. They care whether things load quickly and don't re-f…
IME there are only 2 reliable ways to get people to do what you want: you have authority to tell them to do it, or you can convince them that it's the best course of action.
People often treat their ideas like their children - and calling someone's child "stupid", or "braindead" isn't going to make you popular with them. Good luck convincing them it's a bad idea now - it's a matter of pride, and they'll obstruct you every way they can. Is this rational? No - but it's a reality of working with people, and denying it is futile. I've done it myself in the past, without being aware of my biases, and even then I'll probably do it again in future.
If you're actually working with people (and those people's bosses) who can't be reasoned with using facts and data, presented without calling the idea names, then the rational thing to do (which, it seems, you did) is to find a different team or company. Either you're wrong or they are, and time will prove someone right.
> Who was insulted? What parts of the comment were insulting?
I read the comment and my opinion is "It's a CSS framework! How can it take over a year to make?!" and "The speed and quality of development leaves much to be desired. For example: It took them five months to merge a TTY component. We wrote a similar component in two days." might have been the insulting parts.
Those comments could be construed as calling those devs slow and incompetent. I don't know if that was your actual meaning, but it's hard for me to read it any other way - sorry :-( maybe I'm missing some context.
Sorry also if any of what I said seemed rude. It took me years of insulting people to learn this stuff, and I'm still nowhere near perfect :-), but I thought I should share - it's possible I'm wrong. I also understand if you feel differently.
P.S. I checked out Floobits and it looks super-cool. I'm looking forward to trying it out sometime.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#748Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#749I am very surprised at how many comments this story has gotten on HN. I am even more appalled at how many continue to excuse his actions in the name of "being right" or "technically valid". This reminds me of the infamous [Wheaton's Law]( https://everything2.com/user/OldMiner/writeups/Wheaton%2527s... ) states: "Don't be a dick." A very sound piece of social expectation. As comparison if I were to attempt to learn to…
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#750Earlier quoted context omitted.
You would think and yet.. Did none of John Lasseter's friends call him out and tell him to take the T down a notch over the past 20+ years? I've pondered over this a bit and have come to the conclusion that a lot of people simply don't have close enough friends exposed to their work behavior, or they simply accept it.. Feedback from randos isn't the most likely to instigate big personal change and reflection.
I'm a SIGGRAPH rando who implemented a clone of RenderMan in 1992 or so on Sun Workstations. (It wasn't that great of an implementation (Pat Hanrahan helped me with one bit), but because of the Sun's networking capability - it could parallelize as well as anything else at the time). I don't every recall seeing Lasseter doing anything inappropriate. To your point: The company was going through a hard time, and randos…
It's probably relevant that the majority of Siggraph participants are not John Lasseter's subordinates.