Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful startup? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful startup?

#71

Post by liquidise » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 5:21 AM UTC

throwaway292901 wrote: post #47

"Successful" has a different meaning depending on your title. I work for a successful startup and all the c-levels are happy, but as developer #1 I am very unhappy. The goal was acquisition. We developers did our job: we iterated on several products until one of them struck gold and is minting money. We are ready to move on. The founders are enjoying the success and have put less priority on acquisition. As a "stay-u…

Have the founders considered a profit-sharing solution in the interim? No matter how profitable the current circumstances are, every startup ive been a part of would badly want to solve for the response you wrote about. Particularly in an early engineer who (i assume) knows basically everyone about the codebase and surrounding tech.

Re: Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful startup?

#72

Post by sixdimensional » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 5:24 AM UTC

crunchlibrarian wrote: post #16

I have had two startups promise me the moon and the stars only to fire me shortly after the product was developed and viable. One found a way to screw me out of all the equity as well, which would have made me a ten something millionaire. Once people start smelling money things shift quickly.

I actually have almost the same story. Spent long nights and weekends building a company for a number of years, from the ground up, and I was naive enough to go off a handshake and a verbal promise that my boat would float when all the rest of them did.

When it started to look like the company would be sold, I politely asked if we could finalize an agreement in advance of knowing the sale amount, so that all would be clear. And I wasn’t expecting the moon, just fair compensation if the company was sold. We never even got that far.

2 weeks before the owners sold the company, and I was left out of the org chart handed to potential investors, I was “asked to leave”. I could have sued but I was young and didn’t have the money or energy to do it, so ultimately I left and moved on with my life. Not before going through a period of burnout and depression.

It still stings sometimes. The owners got off with all the money, and I never saw a dime.

A very expensive lesson learned.

That said, I have come to learn, I don’t think I would have been where I am if it had gone any differently - a place where I can sleep at night.

Re: Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful startup?

#73

Post by sizzle » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 5:26 AM UTC

holman wrote: post #21

People. Success breeds some weird shit, especially if you were close to people, which happens a lot in startups with a high work ethic. Friends turn into strangers, friends turn into enemies. Some make more money than you — a lot more — and some make less than you — a lot less. Brews some weird undercurrent sometimes. Money changes things. Even if you don't make real money... the perception of success changes things,…

Reading this comment and thread was painful because I immediately agreed and can tell that it was written from the wisdom you gain only by having experienced it first hand.

I was so naive when I started out in tech as a starry-eyed fresh grad, only to have my soul slowly crushed somewhere between the transition from slash and burn start-ups and boring behemoth big Corp bureaucracy. How do you guys stay sane in tech and do you see yourself do thing forever?

Re: Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful startup?

#74

Post by iliketosleep » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 5:26 AM UTC

holman wrote: post #21

People. Success breeds some weird shit, especially if you were close to people, which happens a lot in startups with a high work ethic. Friends turn into strangers, friends turn into enemies. Some make more money than you — a lot more — and some make less than you — a lot less. Brews some weird undercurrent sometimes. Money changes things. Even if you don't make real money... the perception of success changes things,…

I also agree that "people" is the dark side (as well as the bright side). Mixing friendship with business is complicated, especially in a co-founder relationship. I've seen many instances where not only the business fails, but lifelong friendships are lost. To me, this is definitely the dark side.

Re: Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful startup?

#75

Post by sixdimensional » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 5:26 AM UTC

uxcolumbo wrote: post #65

crunchlibrarian wrote: post #16

I have had two startups promise me the moon and the stars only to fire me shortly after the product was developed and viable. One found a way to screw me out of all the equity as well, which would have made me a ten something millionaire. Once people start smelling money things shift quickly.

What would you do differently now? How would you protect yourself from getting screwed over?

For me personally, get it in writing and pay my own legal and tax advisor to review any agreement, if it was serious enough.

Re: Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful startup?

#76

Post by deanmoriarty » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 5:30 AM UTC

sixdimensional wrote: post #72

crunchlibrarian wrote: post #16

I have had two startups promise me the moon and the stars only to fire me shortly after the product was developed and viable. One found a way to screw me out of all the equity as well, which would have made me a ten something millionaire. Once people start smelling money things shift quickly.

I actually have almost the same story. Spent long nights and weekends building a company for a number of years, from the ground up, and I was naive enough to go off a handshake and a verbal promise that my boat would float when all the rest of them did. When it started to look like the company would be sold, I politely asked if we could finalize an agreement in advance of knowing the sale amount, so that all would be…

Why do you think the founders did that? If they made serious money, why not throw at least a bone at you to compensate for the work? Do you think it was all pure greed, or something went wrong in the relationship between you and them before that?

If they made 100, why not give you 0.1 and keep the 99.9 for themselves? In my home country, doing something like that would probably cause the founders to be worried about their physical safety (eastern europe).

Clearly you did wrong in not having it in writing, but if you were dealing with such vipers, who knows if having it in writing would have been enough anyway? Very shady

Re: Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful startup?

#77

Post by sixdimensional » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 5:32 AM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #34

toomuchtodo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Advice like this helps people from wasting the best years of their life.

I have worked at several startups. So far my payout from stock options has been a $7,000 loss, but maybe some of these shares will be worth something... someday! My career was accelerated because of all the experience I had, and in terms of title and skills I got ahead faster. But in terms of total compensation and the number of hairs remaining on my head, I would have much more wealth and many more hairs had I playe…

Having been on both sides of the fence, mega corps have politics so bad that you want to rip out your hair in addition to it falling out. I can’t honestly say one is better or worse than the other - I think what matters most is are you bringing enough in to survive reasonably comfortable, and do you have a reasonable enough amount of time/energy for your family or personal pursuits on the nights/weekends?

Re: Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful startup?

#78

Post by glangdale » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 5:34 AM UTC

sixdimensional wrote: post #72

crunchlibrarian wrote: post #16

I have had two startups promise me the moon and the stars only to fire me shortly after the product was developed and viable. One found a way to screw me out of all the equity as well, which would have made me a ten something millionaire. Once people start smelling money things shift quickly.

I actually have almost the same story. Spent long nights and weekends building a company for a number of years, from the ground up, and I was naive enough to go off a handshake and a verbal promise that my boat would float when all the rest of them did. When it started to look like the company would be sold, I politely asked if we could finalize an agreement in advance of knowing the sale amount, so that all would be…

This is pretty typical behavior for a lot of startups. I once witnessed a situation where management (knowing that most people's options were way underwater) got a 'top slice' agreement where X% of an acquisition would go straight to key personnel.

Amusingly, this identical vague mechanism was given 2 different names: "Management top slice" when talking to investors/managers, and "Engineering top slice" when talking to the engineering staff.

This ridiculous mechanism was never defined (and ultimately no acquisition occurred in that time-frame), arguments over it ultimately may have helped a few engineers get out so that was about all the impact it had.

The lesson is not to count on verbal agreements. If they don't put anything on paper it's because they don't want to and don't value you enough to care, not because "the time isn't right" or similar nonsense.

Re: Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful startup?

#79

Post by jacknews » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 5:35 AM UTC

iamleppert wrote: post #49

The dark side is probably joining a cool small tech company with interesting problems and work and cool people. As a result of your (& others work) it becomes successful and one day you look around and realize you no longer fit in -- it's become the big tech company you left and vowed to never work at again. Your peers don't care about tech in the same way and don't have the same passion as you, but are still there r…

Now imagine that you didn't get any equity also.

Re: Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful startup?

#80

Post by sixdimensional » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 5:37 AM UTC

deanmoriarty wrote: post #76

sixdimensional wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually have almost the same story. Spent long nights and weekends building a company for a number of years, from the ground up, and I was naive enough to go off a handshake and a verbal promise that my boat would float when all the rest of them did. When it started to look like the company would be sold, I politely asked if we could finalize an agreement in advance of knowing the sale amount, so that all would be…

Why do you think the founders did that? If they made serious money, why not throw at least a bone at you to compensate for the work? Do you think it was all pure greed, or something went wrong in the relationship between you and them before that? If they made 100, why not give you 0.1 and keep the 99.9 for themselves? In my home country, doing something like that would probably cause the founders to be worried about…

I think they had been burned by someone else before, and were not very trustworthy people. I learned later just how shady they were, things I hadn’t seen because I was too busy trying to actually build something that worked.

I think after that it was pure greed. It was a “family-run” business and the wealth stayed with “family”.... and I was just an employee.

The reason I said I can sleep at night is because later in life I realized, I was better off without their money. I would have not felt as good if I’d had gotten it given what I learned about their character and business practices which I had not known about.