Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#601

Post by DEADBEEFC0FFEE » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 2:53 AM UTC

hyperpallium wrote: post #540

JohnBooty wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd bet people tend to cluster onto the line separating "agreeable and lax" and "rude but firm" (as a sweeping generality) Consider this: A third category of people who are able to accomplish their goals by rallying others to their cause. They are essentially imposing their will on others, but are able to do it in a way that is not "rude." This is called charisma. - "Agreeable and lax"... you allow them to paint the…

> people who are able to accomplish their goals by rallying others to their cause. Like Linus.

You gain followers when you work for a the benefit for others. You lose followers when you treat people badly.

Belittling people in a public forum is bad behaviour. I'm amazed its taken so long for the penny to drop. This is in any half decent company's Anti-Bullying training. It's not like you need to be particularly empathetic to learn this stuff.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#602

Post by coffeefirst » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 2:54 AM UTC

tomp wrote: post #247

serf wrote: post #142

I'm probably going to be alone in saying so, but I always enjoyed Linus and his attitude. (to me) it made him appear honest and dedicated to (his own) goals, and I always felt like that was respectable. (mostly) whenever he was proven technically wrong about how to do something he would concede to the technically better solution, and if he didn't do so he gave reasons for his conclusion. in other words : his technica…

I agree. I liked his rants, I found them entertaining, and I wish I was the target of one! (I would probably need to work on my coding skills first.) I wish people would grow thicker skins and get more emotionally mature, and be able to tolerate harsh words without taking them personally.

That would be fine. In the unlikely event I was ever the target of one I would frame it and add it to the bottom of my resume.

The problem isn't that Linus is legendary in his abrasiveness.

The problem is that other people (mostly young) imitate his behavior, starting with the belief that it's okay to be a jerk as long as you're right.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#603

Post by iherbig » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 2:54 AM UTC

ivraatiems wrote: post #216

iherbig wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit difficult to explain, but I'll try. In the current political climate, the left and the right have been divided by the public consciousness into the following dichotomy: The left is overly sensitive and looks for things to be offended by. The right is concerned with maturity and personal responsibility and anti-political correctness, where those things are defined primarily in contrast to the left's perceiv…

> The left is overly sensitive and looks for things to be offended by. > The right is concerned with maturity and personal responsibility and anti-political correctness, where those things are defined primarily in contrast to the left's perceived over-sensitivity. I think this is the right's perspective, but it's not an accurate portrayal of the left's. I therefore disagree with the assertion that this is a fair repr…

>I think this is the right's perspective, but it's not an accurate portrayal of the left's. I therefore disagree with the assertion that this is a fair representation of the "public consciousness" on this issue.

I'm not saying it _is_ an accurate portrayal of _either_ side. The only assertion I'm making is that those are the beliefs the public consciousness holds as truisms, irrespective of their truth values.

Edit: To clarify further, I want to make explicit something implicit in what I said. You may notice that what I'm asserting is the "commonly held beliefs of the public consciousness" is rather right-leaning.

I acknowledge that that statement is also implicitly asserting that the public consciousness is, to some degree, right-leaning as well.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#604

Post by iherbig » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 2:56 AM UTC

stinkytaco wrote: post #285

iherbig wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit difficult to explain, but I'll try. In the current political climate, the left and the right have been divided by the public consciousness into the following dichotomy: The left is overly sensitive and looks for things to be offended by. The right is concerned with maturity and personal responsibility and anti-political correctness, where those things are defined primarily in contrast to the left's perceiv…

> The left is overly sensitive and looks for things to be offended by. >The right is concerned with maturity and personal responsibility and anti-political correctness, where those things are defined primarily in contrast to the left's perceived over-sensitivity. Judging by how the right gets upset by nfl player protests, the news media or what they feel is the "forced inclusion" approach, I disagree with the above s…

I would like to point out that I was not making any statements as to the validity of either of those two statements. Rather, they are commonly-held beliefs irrespective of their truth values.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#605

Post by DEADBEEFC0FFEE » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 2:57 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #314

jakeinspace wrote: post #257

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

He's not just stubborn, persistent, and unyielding: he's performatively so. In his most notorious attacks, he's clearly playing to an audience. That could be the problem. He clearly can separate the blunt stubbornness ("we do not break userland, period") from the performative rudeness ("SHUT THE FUCK UP MAURO"). (I mean, to be clear: what the fuck do I know? I've never been in the position Linus is in.)

You don't need to actually be in Linus' situation to have a reasonable opinion about how to communicate with people you're collaborating with.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#606

Post by homonculus1 » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 2:58 AM UTC

andrewflnr wrote: post #547

DoreenMichele wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Be brutal in private" is not part of that trope though.

It is, it's just a different phrasing. I think you're reading more into "brutal" than blazespin intended. You might be more correct in your interpretation, but I'm pretty sure they just meant "blunt", not "vicious".

Then here's some bluntness:

People who don't mean "brutal" shouldn't use the word "brutal".

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#607

Post by trop » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 2:58 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #314

jakeinspace wrote: post #257

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

He's not just stubborn, persistent, and unyielding: he's performatively so. In his most notorious attacks, he's clearly playing to an audience. That could be the problem. He clearly can separate the blunt stubbornness ("we do not break userland, period") from the performative rudeness ("SHUT THE FUCK UP MAURO"). (I mean, to be clear: what the fuck do I know? I've never been in the position Linus is in.)

I received a master's degree from an art program in which the (male) professors had a great deal of license to performatively take down students, from the initial admissions interview through two years of group critiques. It wasn't unusual for a professor to reduce students to tears. Graduates of the program brought this culture to their own teaching.

Recently I worked at a school whose critiques were set up explicitly not to replicate this harshness. I discussed this with a few friends from grad school, and we were mystified: "How can anyone produce good quality work unless they are constantly being torn apart?" "Is there another way to learn besides being humiliated?" Which led us to look at each other and think, well, we certainly don't choose to live that way otherwise.

And that is the question -- and maybe we'll discover on lkml: is there a better way to create something remarkable. And to replicate that behavior in whatever projects we take on.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#608

Post by rspeer » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:00 AM UTC

JoshTriplett wrote: post #300

tomp wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it's not necessarily a bad thing to explicitly list traits commonly targeted by bullies and harassers. I see a big problem by them omitting protection for people of different political opinions (whereas e.g. religion, which is essentially opinion, is protected).

That's a common problem , and one heavily abused and weaponized. If you want to argue about the level of taxation, the right size of government, regulations on business, whether public or private is the most efficient way to accomplish a goal, or myriad other areas of policy like those, go right ahead. Those kinds of things are absolutely reasonable subjects for healthy and reasonable debate. (They're rarely on-topic…

Thank you for saying this.

Unfortunately, now you know what HN thinks about gay and trans people having equal rights.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#609

Post by stevew20 » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:00 AM UTC

Linus would make a great character in a Neal Stephenson book.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#610

Post by InclinedPlane » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:00 AM UTC

floatingatoll wrote: post #416

I'm known at work for being That Guy who will point out the elephant the room and discuss it face-on, but I invested decades into empathy work so that people now respect me for doing so rather than hate me. I'm glad to see Linus considering an investment in empathy, and I don't feel it will negatively impact his forthrightness long-term — the best of all possible outcomes.

Have you read the book "Crucial Conversations"? It covers exactly how to have conversations about tough topics.