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Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel

thetruthaboutknives.com

51–60 of 107 posts

Re: Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel

#51
post #17

> When it comes down to it, most of today’s super exotic alloys will outperform any pattern-welded steel ... A well-made Damascus blade will stay sharp for longer than most production quality knives, but if you’re looking for the ends-of-the-earth best performing blade steel, look elsewhere Can someone link/name one of these super exotic alloys knifes?

Some examples would be CPM S30V, S35VN, S90V, and S110V; CPM 3V, 9V, 10V, 15V; A2, D2, O1 and S7; VG-10.

Some of these are arguably "more Damascus than Damascus", in a sense that they're also mixes, but on a much finer level. For example, S30V - a relatively affordable "super steel" - is one of those known as "powder steels" due to the way they're made, achieving extreme uniformity and purity of the alloy even at microscopic level:

https://www.knifeart.com/particlesteel.html

This lets knife makers create alloys that are outright impossible using traditional methods (because they wouldn't be able to make them uniform enough). It also means that they can formulate an alloy precisely to match the desired qualities, instead of approximating it by mixing steels in layers as Damascus does.

The kind of stuff we can do with modern technology and modern materials would be considered genuine magic back in the days where the quality of those blades was a life-or-death matter. It's kinda ironic that these days, we use it for EDC knives to avoid sharpening them more often than we'd like.

Here's a good example of how a modern knife made from one of the highest-end steels performs (scroll down to the "Performance" section):

http://knifeinformer.com/spyderco-military-s110v-review/

Re: Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel

#52
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The discussion is whether the _technique_ is lost, not whether we can reproduce the results. So... yes, it does matter. It is, in fact, the crux of the matter.

If we can map all possible ways of making the material, surely one of them must be the ancient technique.

Sure, but we'd still never know which way in particular was used, so it's "lost" in the sense that we can't know what it was to replicate it exactly.

Re: Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel

#53

> Unfortunately, the technique for making both Damascus and Wootz steel has been lost to the centuries. I've watched the artists on Man at Arms Reforged make wootz steel in a kiln from pig iron and wrought iron when recreating a Viking-era sword. It certainly isn't lost. edit: video here if anyone is interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EG34YoRHs8

In the next sentence he mentions how it was rediscovered in the 70s.

Re: Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel

#54
post #53

> Unfortunately, the technique for making both Damascus and Wootz steel has been lost to the centuries. I've watched the artists on Man at Arms Reforged make wootz steel in a kiln from pig iron and wrought iron when recreating a Viking-era sword. It certainly isn't lost. edit: video here if anyone is interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EG34YoRHs8

In the next sentence he mentions how it was rediscovered in the 70s.

I believe you're referring to this sentence?

> "The art form has resurfaced, though, and in 1973 bladesmith William F. Moran unveiled his “Damascus knives” at the Knifemakers’ Guild Show."

I read this as In 1973 Moran unveiled knives with the look of Damascus steel through a process he developed. The scare quotes reinforce the fact that it's not the same as the original Damascus steel.

Re: Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel

#55
post #23

Knife community is pretty tight and also pretty accessible. I've exchanged emails with Devin Thomas and I'm a relative newbie. I think of damascus as an aesthetic element first. Some people really like it, others find it too flashy.

Can I ask how you got started, and why? Thinking about picking up knife making as a hobby and curious about your experience. Feel free to email me - address in profile.

I'm a knife owner not a maker.

Re: Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel

#56
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The discussion is whether the _technique_ is lost, not whether we can reproduce the results. So... yes, it does matter. It is, in fact, the crux of the matter.

If we can map all possible ways of making the material, surely one of them must be the ancient technique.

If we arrange all possible combinations of letters into strings, then we can have all the books which burned in Alexandria. But if you had to walk along an isle in the library of the superset of all possible books, you would die before you came across one that existed. And if you could live forever, there would be uncountable minor varations variations of imposter books before the actual one.

Re: Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we can map all possible ways of making the material, surely one of them must be the ancient technique.

If we arrange all possible combinations of letters into strings, then we can have all the books which burned in Alexandria. But if you had to walk along an isle in the library of the superset of all possible books, you would die before you came across one that existed. And if you could live forever, there would be uncountable minor varations variations of imposter books before the actual one.

If this isn't already the plot to a Borges short story, it should be.

Re: Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel

#59
post #51
post #17

> When it comes down to it, most of today’s super exotic alloys will outperform any pattern-welded steel ... A well-made Damascus blade will stay sharp for longer than most production quality knives, but if you’re looking for the ends-of-the-earth best performing blade steel, look elsewhere Can someone link/name one of these super exotic alloys knifes?

Some examples would be CPM S30V, S35VN, S90V, and S110V; CPM 3V, 9V, 10V, 15V; A2, D2, O1 and S7; VG-10. Some of these are arguably "more Damascus than Damascus", in a sense that they're also mixes, but on a much finer level. For example, S30V - a relatively affordable "super steel" - is one of those known as "powder steels" due to the way they're made, achieving extreme uniformity and purity of the alloy even at mic…

Really big fan of S30V, it's a pretty decent blend of edge retention without being an absolute pain to resharpen.

There's some really interesting specialty metals out there like Boye Dendritic Cobalt[1]. I've got one of their sheepsfoot folders and it's a pretty neat for a specialty knife.

[1] https://www.boyeknives.com/pages/new-dendritic-cobalt

Re: Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel

#60

> Unfortunately, the technique for making both Damascus and Wootz steel has been lost to the centuries. I've watched the artists on Man at Arms Reforged make wootz steel in a kiln from pig iron and wrought iron when recreating a Viking-era sword. It certainly isn't lost. edit: video here if anyone is interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EG34YoRHs8

Nobody knows if the modern approach is the same, even if using historically appropriate tools and materials.

Here's a hypothetical. Say we do archeology, and find remains from wootz which include crystals which can only form at a given maximum temp, and others which only form at a given minimum temp, and slag which has like properties, and other evidence of quenching at specific times in the production cycle.

If we collect enough of this, would you actually accept we had re-discovered the technique or would you nit-pick it to death? If for example, plunging the blade into the belly of a slave doesn't materially alter production, do we fail to make it the same way, if we don't do it?

Primo Levi writes about an industrial chemical plant adding sal volatile to a paint recipe because "thats how they do it" when he originated the technique to counter excessive acidty (or alkinility, I forget which) during post war conditions which no longer applied. I think this is worth bearing on, because it made absolutely NO difference to the paint, but persisted as a process. You think this didn't happen in Wootz manufacture?

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