Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel

#41

Post by abakker » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:17 AM UTC

21 wrote: post #17

> When it comes down to it, most of today’s super exotic alloys will outperform any pattern-welded steel ... A well-made Damascus blade will stay sharp for longer than most production quality knives, but if you’re looking for the ends-of-the-earth best performing blade steel, look elsewhere Can someone link/name one of these super exotic alloys knifes?

A go-to for non-stainless that many people get excellent performance from is 52100 - which is ball bearing steel. Not a “super steel” but very high performance when given a good treatment (I.e. from a maker that understands how to treat it in a knife making context)

CPM154 and S30V are pretty special steels. Nearly impossible to home-heat treat without a lot of equipment, (molten salts pots, cryogenic equipment). When done right, though, they sure perform.

Re: Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel

#42

Post by gesman » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:22 AM UTC

Just FYI:

Absolute hardest material for knife blades is ZrO2 (Zirconium dioxide == Ceramic).

It also the most brittle, but never rusts and holds sharpness for insane amount of time.

Re: Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel

#43

Post by abakker » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:24 AM UTC

claydavisss wrote: post #5

Damascus steel requires much more time to hone. It holds an edge longer, but I'm not sure it is worth the frustration involved in getting an edge. My favorite straight razors are my vintage ones, mostly because the steel is of lower quality....they take an edge real fast! Damascus steel also makes products very expensive. I tend to lose straight razors and pocket knives, so it doesn't make sense to make such a large…

Your experience is not wrong, but the cause you attribute it to is. Damascus steels are made out of modern steels. Modern steels tend to contain molybdenum, vanadium, chromium, tungsten, etc. when they are heat treated, some of those elements above form carbides in the steel. When you try to cut those carbides with a stone, you don’t. You need diamond stones to sharpen high carbide steel. Without that, the carbide scores the water stone and the stone erodes the steel around the carbide inclusions. Essentially making the edge lumpy.

In old steels -1077, 1084, and 1095, there are few carbides that aren’t iron-based. This makes sharpening much much easier, and also makes edges dull much faster. In a straight razor, I (like you) would rather optimize for easy sharpening/honing, but, for other purposes, more modern steels perform better.

Re: Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel

#44

Post by legohead » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:27 AM UTC

This guy explains it better I think: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISSGL4Ns2qw

Re: Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel

#45

Post by n1000 » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:27 AM UTC

hprotagonist wrote: post #6

pattern welding is, effectively, a solution to a problem we don't have any more. When steel quality varied widely between batches, you needed a reliable way to mix it up so that the overall properties of the resulting object were predictable. This evolved into a more sophisticated technique that gave you not only predictability but differential properties (harder steel at the edge, more ductile in the spine) and a pr…

To my understanding Damascus was indeed not needed anymore as sword fighting came out of fashion. For swords it was very useful to have flexible yet sharp blades. Or has Damascus steel been traditionally used for knives too?

Re: Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel

#46

Post by ummonk » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:39 AM UTC

This post is blatantly wrong. Wootz steel (sourced from India but known in the West as Damascus steel because that was where a lot of the blades were made) was not pattern welded / folded.

Pattern welding was used in the West to try and emulate these blades, and has gotten the name "Damascus steel", but it is not classic Damascus / wootz steel.

Re: Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel

#47

Post by grzm » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:43 AM UTC

ummonk wrote: post #46

This post is blatantly wrong. Wootz steel (sourced from India but known in the West as Damascus steel because that was where a lot of the blades were made) was not pattern welded / folded. Pattern welding was used in the West to try and emulate these blades, and has gotten the name "Damascus steel", but it is not classic Damascus / wootz steel.

The article makes exactly this point:

> "First, let’s do a little freshening up on what exactly “Damascus steel” is. Damascus, Wootz, and patternweld are all names given to different types of steels and blades. Basically, the idea is that two or more steel alloys are forged/cast together through various methods to give the wavy artistic pattern that comes from such a layering process. Unfortunately, the technique for making both Damascus and Wootz steel has been lost to the centuries. Anyone claiming to be making authentic Wootz/Damascus these days is delusional. Or lying . . ."

...

> "The other type of pattern-welded steel is the so called “Damascus steel”. Originally used in middle eastern sword making, the method has been lost since about the 16th century. The art form has resurfaced, though, and in 1973 bladesmith William F. Moran unveiled his “Damascus knives” at the Knifemakers’ Guild Show. Ever since then modern pattern-welded steel blades have been called “Damascus knives”."

Re: Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel

#48

Post by TheSpiceIsLife » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:47 AM UTC

volkl48 wrote: post #39

vvanders wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty cool, I'm assuming it runs from 240 or is it something beefier? Their factory is pretty neat, it's much smaller than I would have expected given their volume. Happy to support a company that does all it's work in the US even if the prices are higher. One of the thing that was interesting from the factory tour was that they were really just a high precision (at the time in the 80s) machine shop. Most of…

Not the OP, but the "standard" electrical connection in a metal shop is usually 480v 3-phase, most tools are going to use that.

Yep, this is correct, 3 phase.

Re: Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel

#49

Post by ummonk » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:47 AM UTC

grzm wrote: post #47

ummonk wrote: post #46

This post is blatantly wrong. Wootz steel (sourced from India but known in the West as Damascus steel because that was where a lot of the blades were made) was not pattern welded / folded. Pattern welding was used in the West to try and emulate these blades, and has gotten the name "Damascus steel", but it is not classic Damascus / wootz steel.

The article makes exactly this point: > "First, let’s do a little freshening up on what exactly “Damascus steel” is. Damascus, Wootz, and patternweld are all names given to different types of steels and blades. Basically, the idea is that two or more steel alloys are forged/cast together through various methods to give the wavy artistic pattern that comes from such a layering process. Unfortunately, the technique for…

> "The other type of pattern-welded steel is the so called “Damascus steel”. Originally used in middle eastern sword making, the method has been lost since about the 16th century.

That's simply wrong. It wasn't pattern-welded. It appeared similar to pattern-welded steel, but was manufactured without any pattern-welding.

Re: Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel

#50

Post by grzm » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:58 AM UTC

ummonk wrote: post #49

grzm wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article makes exactly this point: > "First, let’s do a little freshening up on what exactly “Damascus steel” is. Damascus, Wootz, and patternweld are all names given to different types of steels and blades. Basically, the idea is that two or more steel alloys are forged/cast together through various methods to give the wavy artistic pattern that comes from such a layering process. Unfortunately, the technique for…

> "The other type of pattern-welded steel is the so called “Damascus steel”. Originally used in middle eastern sword making, the method has been lost since about the 16th century. That's simply wrong. It wasn't pattern-welded. It appeared similar to pattern-welded steel, but was manufactured without any pattern-welding.

I read the "pattern-welded steel" as a reference to the current method: the sentence you quote explicitly says the original method is lost: in other words, unknown.