Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#491

Post by briatx » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:11 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #313

blazespin wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key, I find, is to be extremely direct and brutal in one on ones. Don't hold back, but be very supportive and positive when more than two people present. I try to explain this to be people I work with, but I don't think everyone appreciates it. Horrible people, in my opinion, are those that do the opposite.

That's actually the very definition of abuse. I am much more comfortable with people being publicly blunt. At least there is no gaslighting involved where the victim wonders if they imagined it because everyone keeps telling them "he would never do that" or whatever. If you are on excellent terms with someone and they trust you, etc, it can work to be more blunt in private. But most people doing that are just hiding…

It doesn't sound abusive to me at all. "Criticize privately, praise publicly" is a well known management trope.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#492

Post by tomnipotent » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:11 AM UTC

moosingin3space wrote: post #435

tomnipotent wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, just like regular employees are better qualified to run a company than the CEO. No one is more qualified than Linus to run this project and he's done a damn good job so far. Has he made mistakes? Sure. He's human.

I think that when a company reaches a certain size and stability level, as long as the CEO is competent and understands how to balance external and internal issues, the particular CEO doesn't matter that much. The real power over product direction comes from the PMs, VPs, etc. That's my argument -- Linus isn't uniquely qualified to run the Linux kernel project, since he's barely even involved in the direction of the…

> the particular CEO doesn't matter that much

Business history & Jack Welch disagree with you. Individual project success is incredibly nuanced and individuals - even in 10k+ orgs - can have massive impacts. Trying to pretend that outliers don't massively influence company success is naive, and MBA programs study these individuals because they are the exception and not the rule.

There's a reason we have Madison Square Garden, Rockefeller Center and Carnegie Mellon. It's not hero worship to acknowledge the contributions of individuals - recognizing a great general doesn't diminish the accomplishments of his army.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#493

Post by Bendingo » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:11 AM UTC

tomp wrote: post #247

serf wrote: post #142

I'm probably going to be alone in saying so, but I always enjoyed Linus and his attitude. (to me) it made him appear honest and dedicated to (his own) goals, and I always felt like that was respectable. (mostly) whenever he was proven technically wrong about how to do something he would concede to the technically better solution, and if he didn't do so he gave reasons for his conclusion. in other words : his technica…

I agree. I liked his rants, I found them entertaining, and I wish I was the target of one! (I would probably need to work on my coding skills first.) I wish people would grow thicker skins and get more emotionally mature, and be able to tolerate harsh words without taking them personally.

Yes, agree also.

> be able to tolerate harsh words without taking them personally

This is an essential life skill.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#494

Post by DoreenMichele » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:12 AM UTC

briatx wrote: post #491

DoreenMichele wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's actually the very definition of abuse. I am much more comfortable with people being publicly blunt. At least there is no gaslighting involved where the victim wonders if they imagined it because everyone keeps telling them "he would never do that" or whatever. If you are on excellent terms with someone and they trust you, etc, it can work to be more blunt in private. But most people doing that are just hiding…

It doesn't sound abusive to me at all. "Criticize privately, praise publicly" is a well known management trope.

"Be brutal in private" is not part of that trope though.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#495

Post by JohnBooty » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:12 AM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #325

JoshTriplett wrote: post #276

Take a look at the chart in https://twitter.com/ErynnBrook/status/1038893975279550465 Many people are so afraid of ending up in the bottom right (just giving in) that they head for the top left (zero-sum competition). This underlies some of the things people fear about codes of conduct; they're afraid that they're being pushed into that bottom right corner, rather than striving for better collaboration. Be direct. Be…

The problem here is that the "Collaborating" sector is the wrong goal for the Linux kernel. Linus Torvalds is uniquely qualified to be concerned about matters concerning the kernel; if his interlocutors "win" too much on their side of the "win/win", every user loses. The public embarrassment of lazy and dishonest actors, especially those who are paid to collaborate, is an effective tool for maintaining order and stan…

    The public embarrassment of lazy and dishonest actors,
    especially those who are paid to collaborate, is an 
    effective tool for maintaining order and standards on 
    behalf of the quality of the product, and provided nobody 
    gets hurt permanently at the end of the day, it is easily 
    justified.

Can you explain why you feel rants and insults are necessary to maintain high technical standards?

Literally nobody is asking Linus to relax his standards for what makes it into the kernel.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#496

Post by GW150914 » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:12 AM UTC

xor1 wrote: post #49

GW150914 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it has anything to do with so-called PC or women, it’s just unprofessional behavior and tech has gone from people in a garage to the leaders on the market in that same time. Tech grew up, became a profession, and perforce people involved have had to grow up too. It has literally nothing to do with the usual culture war bullshit that gets paraded around. It’s sort of tragic that some people have so littl…

Tech has been a profession longer than you or I have been alive.

First of all I opened with, tech has gone from people in a garage to the leaders on the market in that same time. The scale has dwarfed essentially everything except finance. Second, when I look around at major professions, I see standards of practice and organizations to enforce them. There is no functional AMA of tech, and it shows in every janky IoT product, dishonest and borderline illegal privacy invasion or growth hack, and MVP that forgot the V. If you want the respect, you need more than just money, you need accountability. In Linus’ case he’s lesrning that in the real world it is (as he said) unprofessional to suggest that a colleague should be aborted.

Imo of course.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#497

Post by danso » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:15 AM UTC

Mononokay wrote: post #42

Leszek wrote: post #4

Maybe this will finally end the myth that "you can be rude and insulting as long as you're right" that people seem to attribute to Linus's outbursts

He could, and still can. Literally nothing's stopping him other than a personal decision to subjectively improve his behavior. You can absolutely be rude and insulting as long as you're right.

> You can absolutely be rude and insulting as long as you're right.

What is the basis for this "might makes right" axiom when it comes to collaboration? I mean, obviously, anyone -- winners and losers -- can choose to be rude and insulting for any reason they'd like, they aren't barred by law or regulation. What tangential or moral benefits do you believe come from adopting a "winner has the right to be rude" mentality, particularly in an open source community? I think it's almost self-evident what the drawbacks are -- for example, that the risk of humiliation might stifle people's willingness to debate at all -- so what are the upsides to fostering that kind of environment?

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#498

Post by DoreenMichele » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:15 AM UTC

doctorless wrote: post #489

DoreenMichele wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's actually the very definition of abuse. I am much more comfortable with people being publicly blunt. At least there is no gaslighting involved where the victim wonders if they imagined it because everyone keeps telling them "he would never do that" or whatever. If you are on excellent terms with someone and they trust you, etc, it can work to be more blunt in private. But most people doing that are just hiding…

> That’s actually the very definition of abuse. No it isn’t. From Merriam-Webster: Definition of abuse 1 : a corrupt practice or custom — the buying of votes and other election abuses 2 : improper or excessive use or treatment : misuse — drug abuse 3 : language that condemns or vilifies usually unjustly, intemperately, and angrily — verbal abuse a term of abuse 4 : physical maltreatment —child abuse sexual abuse 5 ob…

be extremely direct and brutal in one on ones

2: improper or excessive use or treatment

The OP self assesses their private behavior as brutal. I would call that improper or excessive.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#499

Post by tptacek » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:16 AM UTC

cirgue wrote: post #480

tptacek wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not just stubborn, persistent, and unyielding: he's performatively so. In his most notorious attacks, he's clearly playing to an audience. That could be the problem. He clearly can separate the blunt stubbornness ("we do not break userland, period") from the performative rudeness ("SHUT THE FUCK UP MAURO"). (I mean, to be clear: what the fuck do I know? I've never been in the position Linus is in.)

Linus may know that there is some value in people being afraid to come to you with sloppy execution, bullshit ideas, or misrepresentations of facts.

It doesn't exactly count as insight to observe that there's value in minimizing bullshit. Meanwhile, Linus just got done explaining to you why he's unhappy with the balance he's struck there.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#500

Post by Bendingo » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:16 AM UTC

ci5er wrote: post #397

TomVDB wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree strongly with his personal 'no BS' attacks. For some people, it's a huge deterrent to make contributions. I've participated in a number of open source projects. I like to think that I've made useful suggestions and contributions, in addition to making dumb ones. When I make a dumb suggestion, I expect to corrected in a respectful way. There have been cases where a project maintainer answered in an aggressi…

That makes sense. I also hate personal confrontation. In the past, I have even had my own sub-ordinates (I hate that word - but they were the engineers that reported to me) confront me, leaving me, from time-to-time to go home and vomit and not sleep. So - yes - I understand. I've never looked at a rebuke from Linus in the same way. I don't know why. I guess I'll go think about that... EDIT: After (very) short reflec…

> the difference is whether it is a close personal person rebuking me, vs. some sort of distant character

Yes, this is an important distinction. Being verballed by a stranger (even a famous one like Linus) might be embarrassing, but it wouldn't hurt like being rebuked by some who actually knows me.