Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#471

Post by int_19h » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 12:59 AM UTC

coffeemug wrote: post #450

grzm wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ”I'll take an asshole over a pushover any day“ This is a false dichotomy. There’s no need to be an asshole to not be a pushover.

Actually, it isn't. For example in today's environment when someone suggests something stupid, it is no longer acceptable to say "this seems stupid to me" because it might hurt someone's feelings. So instead you walk it back and say things diplomatically (which is a tiny form of a white lie). Then people reply to your diplomatic statement with another diplomatic statement, and pretty soon nobody is saying the thing t…

"Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untravelled, the naive, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best."

That's Robert A. Heinlein, hardly known for being a social justice activist.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#472

Post by stephengillie » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:00 AM UTC

Rapzid wrote: post #427

mcguire wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what that discussion was like. It's not as if no one ever mentioned the subject to him before.

You would think and yet.. Did none of John Lasseter's friends call him out and tell him to take the T down a notch over the past 20+ years? I've pondered over this a bit and have come to the conclusion that a lot of people simply don't have close enough friends exposed to their work behavior, or they simply accept it.. Feedback from randos isn't the most likely to instigate big personal change and reflection.

I call it the Impact Wrench[∆] theory of Engineer Management. It's widely practiced, sadly to modest success. This turns pressure into torque, so the harder you come down on your engineers, the faster they spin - right until they burn out.

[∆]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_wrench

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#473

Post by explainplease » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:00 AM UTC

lucio wrote: post #394

mewaj wrote: post #372

And to prove how important it is to be respectful, empathetic and tolerant, the originator of the new Code of Conduct is gloating on Twitter and mocking those who disagree with this move. This is not about being respectful to others, it's about forcing others to be respectful to you. Unfortunately respect is earned, not given, and anything else extracted under duress just breeds resentment.

link?

http://archive.is/6AyZy

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#474

Post by TallGuyShort » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:01 AM UTC

jakeinspace wrote: post #257

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

I too believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable. I'm less concerned about that fact that Linus' exist as I am about the fact that some of those traits are often correlated with success, and people idolize the successful ones without separating the 2 qualities. I've seen people emulate Steve Jobs to the point of dressing like him and using his mannerisms during presentations, and then also lash out at colleagues for not meeting some arbitrary quality bar with vague comments about it not being perfect enough. Assholes often make it to the top. You gotta admire the parts of them that aren't assholes.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#475

Post by School-Cotton » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:01 AM UTC

coffeemug wrote: post #450

grzm wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ”I'll take an asshole over a pushover any day“ This is a false dichotomy. There’s no need to be an asshole to not be a pushover.

Actually, it isn't. For example in today's environment when someone suggests something stupid, it is no longer acceptable to say "this seems stupid to me" because it might hurt someone's feelings. So instead you walk it back and say things diplomatically (which is a tiny form of a white lie). Then people reply to your diplomatic statement with another diplomatic statement, and pretty soon nobody is saying the thing t…

There is a difference between blunt and abusive. Don't conflate them.

"This code is wrong. We should not be doing things this way, and I'm rejecting the patch."

vs.

"You are a fucking retard for submitting this patch. Anyone who thinks like this should be retroactively aborted."

The first style is blunt and to-the-point. The second is unnecessarily mean.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#476

Post by JohnBooty » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:01 AM UTC

jakeinspace wrote: post #257

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

    I'd bet people tend to cluster onto the line 
    separating "agreeable and lax" and "rude but 
    firm" (as a sweeping generality)

Consider this:

A third category of people who are able to accomplish their goals by rallying others to their cause. They are essentially imposing their will on others, but are able to do it in a way that is not "rude." This is called charisma.

- "Agreeable and lax"... you allow them to paint the fence however they want, even if their work is shoddy. you may wind up doing it yourself because you don't feel comfortable enforcing your will on others. or perhaps you just wind up with a crappy looking fence.

- "Rude but firm"... you don't care about others' feelings and force them somehow to to paint the fence to your specifications. either by physical force, economic force (you have money they need) or some other means

- "Charisma"... you convince them that painting the fence the way you want it painted is the best possible thing they could be doing. they willingly paint it for you because they believe it is a good cause and a good use of their time. (note: this does not necessarily imply dishonesty or trickery. arguably, the most charismatic people might be those that are true believers)

https://www.google.com/search?q=tom+sawyer+fence

Somewhat tangential, somewhat related: Sun Tzu wrote that the most perfect form of victory was adding the enemies' forces to you own by convincing them to support your cause.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#477

Post by DoreenMichele » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:02 AM UTC

dragonsky67 wrote: post #467

DoreenMichele wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's actually the very definition of abuse. I am much more comfortable with people being publicly blunt. At least there is no gaslighting involved where the victim wonders if they imagined it because everyone keeps telling them "he would never do that" or whatever. If you are on excellent terms with someone and they trust you, etc, it can work to be more blunt in private. But most people doing that are just hiding…

I think it needs to be acknowledged that many people don't get subtle feedback. If you give me subtle feedback, either positive or negative, chances are I will miss it all together. I need feedback that is clear and obvious, what others could categorises as being blunt or abusive otherwise I will walk away scratching my head wondering if I've done well or otherwise. Reminds me of advise that was given to my Wife by a…

See, this is the piece that makes me assess this as an abusive thing to do:

The key, I find, is to be extremely direct and brutal in one on ones.

I have two special needs sons. I'm a former military wife. I tend to err on the side of being super, duper blunt and, no, my kids don't get "hints." But that doesn't mean I have to be ugly about it most of the time either.

Real life example:

When they were little, I would say "The trash is overflowing and needs to go out." My oldest would look over his shoulder, see that this statement was factually true, acknowledge the veracity of it and continue playing his video game. The fact that my statement was intended to get him to take the trash out did not quite click.

There is nothing whatsoever abusive about changing that statement to "Son, you need to stop what you are doing right now and take the trash out." That's just clear communication.

I am well aware that some people think saying something like that is somehow emotionally abusive or some nonsense. I have spent plenty of time on parenting lists where people were horrified that I would tell my sons something directly instead of dropping hints or some nonsense.

I'm quite fond of the movie quote "I'm too truthful to be good." I'm also very fond of a rubric I learned long ago that "Those who believe in telling the brutal truth value brutality more than truth."

I can be very, very, very blunt. I try to always be kind, to the best of my ability. I see no contradiction between the two.

Learning to tailor your communication style to the needs of individuals on your team is just good management and doesn't require any meanness whatsoever. In fact, it's a kindness.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#478

Post by cscurmudgeon » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:02 AM UTC

dragonsky67 wrote: post #444

jXCw1N0jtH3 wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we seriously putting Linus in the same category as Newton

I'm not sure that the comparison is completely invalid. Linus, via Linux has IMHO had a fairly profound impact on the world.

Newton was much more humble. Shoulders of giants and all.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#479

Post by coffeemug » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:03 AM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #471

coffeemug wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it isn't. For example in today's environment when someone suggests something stupid, it is no longer acceptable to say "this seems stupid to me" because it might hurt someone's feelings. So instead you walk it back and say things diplomatically (which is a tiny form of a white lie). Then people reply to your diplomatic statement with another diplomatic statement, and pretty soon nobody is saying the thing t…

"Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untravelled, the naive, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too we…

There are different ways to oil the machine, I'm not throwing out the baby along with the bathwater in naivete. Lots of cultures encouraged being direct, were insanely productive, and oiled the gears in a different way. The current cultural trend is just fashion, it will pass, but things will get worse before they get better.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#480

Post by cirgue » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:03 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #314

jakeinspace wrote: post #257

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

He's not just stubborn, persistent, and unyielding: he's performatively so. In his most notorious attacks, he's clearly playing to an audience. That could be the problem. He clearly can separate the blunt stubbornness ("we do not break userland, period") from the performative rudeness ("SHUT THE FUCK UP MAURO"). (I mean, to be clear: what the fuck do I know? I've never been in the position Linus is in.)

Linus may know that there is some value in people being afraid to come to you with sloppy execution, bullshit ideas, or misrepresentations of facts.