Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#461

Post by stephengillie » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 12:48 AM UTC

Klover wrote: post #323

staticassertion wrote: post #308

I feel like anyone who says "Linus was harsh but fair" never really read much of what Linus said. Many of his attacks, especially long ago, were quite vitriolic and very much not technical. Oftentimes they weren't rants, just flat out insults, short and mean (I remember, in particular, posts directed towards PaX). They weren't productive, there wasn't a brash technical take buried in them - they were just insults. Ma…

It might be worth noting that the people who do say he’s harsh but fair are people who actually comment on his rants. When I see another on HN I scroll past it, because I’m not interested in the sensation. I can’t imagine I’m the only one. Then there are people who do see his rants as a model, or who do like the sensation and do like the spice. Those people are far more likely to discuss it, repeat it, mimick it or i…

Steve Jobs did it better.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#462

Post by dragonsky67 » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 12:48 AM UTC

everdev wrote: post #296

jakeinspace wrote: post #257

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

Very true, but as the recipients we risk misunderstanding rude and intimidating behavior as strength or stubbornness as confidence. When we elevate and accept these behaviors we all lose.

It really does depend upon what you are trying to achieve. I'm not familiar with the operation of the Linux kernel team so my comments are more from experience with large organisations.

You want your team lead/manager to mentor, encourage guide and assist towards a goal that she has clearly defined. You want your leads manager to provide the resources your team lead has identified as being needed. You want the senior (ultimate) manager to set the goals, provide extensive praise when goals are met and come down like a ton of bricks when they are not. He or she is the "boggy man" who must be pleased and carries the big stick, and the one the team lead insulates the team from. In most cases the boggy man is a big act, but it is an effective tactic to get all the teams working in one direction. Problems happen when the subordinate managers start hiding or changing information that the senior manager may not like. This can be avoided by having a senior manager who actually knows how things work, and can test the water on his own.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#463

Post by tptacek » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 12:50 AM UTC

blihp wrote: post #443

tptacek wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, I felt like I was giving him more credit by saying that his rants were performative: at least that would have an ostensible purpose. If you're abusing other people to "blow off steam", that's kind of a no-brainer "you should go see someone about not having to do that anymore".

You're right about it (objectively) being a no-brainer. Unfortunately, it's often hard to see things objectively from a first-person perspective. It sounds like Linus is acknowledging there's a problem and hopefully he can work on whatever the issue is without shaving off too much of the edge that makes him so effective.

Yeah, everything else aside, I'm impressed by the statement.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#464

Post by stephengillie » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 12:50 AM UTC

_wldu wrote: post #43

Way to go Linus... this is a great lesson for all of us! It's easy to get caught-up in the heat of the moment and say and do things that we regret. We've all done it. It's part of being human. The key is to realize it, apologize and do better.

> The key is to realize it, apologize and do better.

Apologies are begging for redemption after a failure. This misses the point, and often any apology becomes a magical panacea for any fault.

The key is to never fail the same way twice, and to do better in the future, so you do not need to apologize for this, ever again.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#465

Post by kapauldo » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 12:53 AM UTC

What's the one sentence version?

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#466

Post by damnyou » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 12:53 AM UTC

eloff wrote: post #458

Agreeableness in general is negatively correlated with career success. Have you noticed that Fortune 500 CEOs tend to be extremely disagreeable, to the point of psychopathy in some cases. At the risk of sticking my neck out, it's also one of the many reasons for the gender pay gap, woman are more agreeable than men. And you have to be somewhat disagreeable to stand up for yourself and demand a raise (or quit and seek…

What if, and this might blow your mind, we tweak things so that agreeableness is rewarded more?

Society is constructed too adversarially for my tastes. More collaboration would be better.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#467

Post by dragonsky67 » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 12:53 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #313

blazespin wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key, I find, is to be extremely direct and brutal in one on ones. Don't hold back, but be very supportive and positive when more than two people present. I try to explain this to be people I work with, but I don't think everyone appreciates it. Horrible people, in my opinion, are those that do the opposite.

That's actually the very definition of abuse. I am much more comfortable with people being publicly blunt. At least there is no gaslighting involved where the victim wonders if they imagined it because everyone keeps telling them "he would never do that" or whatever. If you are on excellent terms with someone and they trust you, etc, it can work to be more blunt in private. But most people doing that are just hiding…

I think it needs to be acknowledged that many people don't get subtle feedback. If you give me subtle feedback, either positive or negative, chances are I will miss it all together. I need feedback that is clear and obvious, what others could categorises as being blunt or abusive otherwise I will walk away scratching my head wondering if I've done well or otherwise.

Reminds me of advise that was given to my Wife by a friend when I got married.

Subtle hints don't work, Hints don't work, if you have something you don't like that he is doing, make sure you are bloody obvious when you talk to him about it.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#468

Post by sincerely » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 12:55 AM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #326

tomp wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I liked his rants, I found them entertaining, and I wish I was the target of one! (I would probably need to work on my coding skills first.) I wish people would grow thicker skins and get more emotionally mature, and be able to tolerate harsh words without taking them personally.

> I wish people would grow thicker skins and get more emotionally mature, and be able to tolerate harsh words without taking them personally This is the "rock polisher" thesis of life, which I've also called the "bully thesis." I grew up swapping between different parts of America that approached "how to generate a functional adult" differentally. Some places, it was "love and care for your fellow man. Work together…

>In your example - what's the point of thicker skin if people simply don't say mean things to each other?

You can never control other people's behavior, only your own. Learning to deal with mean comments is a valuable skill.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#469

Post by humanrebar » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 12:57 AM UTC

damnyou wrote: post #466

eloff wrote: post #458

Agreeableness in general is negatively correlated with career success. Have you noticed that Fortune 500 CEOs tend to be extremely disagreeable, to the point of psychopathy in some cases. At the risk of sticking my neck out, it's also one of the many reasons for the gender pay gap, woman are more agreeable than men. And you have to be somewhat disagreeable to stand up for yourself and demand a raise (or quit and seek…

What if, and this might blow your mind, we tweak things so that agreeableness is rewarded more? Society is constructed too adversarially for my tastes. More collaboration would be better.

Most people would put sarcasm on the adversarial side if the spectrum.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#470

Post by JoshTriplett » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 12:58 AM UTC

furgooswft13 wrote: post #401

JoshTriplett wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a common problem , and one heavily abused and weaponized. If you want to argue about the level of taxation, the right size of government, regulations on business, whether public or private is the most efficient way to accomplish a goal, or myriad other areas of policy like those, go right ahead. Those kinds of things are absolutely reasonable subjects for healthy and reasonable debate. (They're rarely on-topic…

> If you want to argue about the level of taxation, the right size of government, regulations on business, whether public or private is the most efficient way to accomplish a goal, or myriad other areas of policy like those, go right ahead. You list a bunch of self-approved topics that you believe are okay to talk about. How about arguing for stricter immigration laws, anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, skepticism on…

> anti-gay marriage, skepticism on transgender orthodoxy

> routinely twisted into "questioning other's right to exist", or denial of basic human rights/decency, or sexist/racist

Interesting list. Doesn't take much twisting.

You're providing a good demonstration of the point here. You don't get to feel comfortable advocating those things, at the expense of the people who live those things. Your comfort, versus their lives.

(Forestalling the obvious response: yes, I did intentionally select the most problematic points you raised to respond to, because they demonstrate the primary problem with attempting to protect "political opinion" in a code of conduct.)

> So are they verboten? Remember this CoC explicitly states it applies both inside and outside project spaces.

Inside a project they're almost universally off-topic. In the rare cases where they're not, it's often because a project actually intersects with such issues, such as needing to handle personal data or similar.

As for outside a project, the topics you listed vary greatly. I seriously doubt you'd find anyone's role in a project at risk because of their thoughts on climate change. On the other hand, if you actively campaign against other people's rights, you may well find that people don't want to work with you.

> I think you'd need to look long and hard to find anyone in open source projects seriously advocating for some group to be wiped off the face of the earth.

Not particularly long nor hard, no; I run into them regularly.

> This is why either "political opinion" needs to be protected, or the whole thing scrapped.

Even leaving aside whether there's any problem here at all, since when have the choices been "perfect solution or no solution"?

If you've got a limited amount of water you start by using it on the houses that are on fire, not the ones who want their grass watered.