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Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#311

Post by santoshalper »

azernik wrote: post #286
jakeinspace wrote: post #257

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

I think there's a delicate way to be both "firm" and "polite" - and that's to not be pretend to be "agreeable", but rather to separate the firmness on technical issues from politeness on personal description. That is, to say "this code is awful" while also a) going out of your way to praise the things co-workers/subordinates do well, and b) when it is appropriate to make general judgments on their performance, make i…

"praise-criticise-praise"

We call it the shit sandwich.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#312

Post by bayindirh »

With that e-mail, Linus has just leveled up. Hope that he can find the way to separate his firmness and "quest for a better patch" from his somewhat volatile responses.

Yes, reading Linus' e-mails is somewhat fun, like watching a documentary with some satirical, comical moments. On the other hand, being on the receiving end of these conversations are always painful, and yes he possibly kept some people away from kernel development.

Being burnt and roasted and yelled at for your best effort can break your motivation from its foundation if you are new at something, and it's not really fun.

I congratulate him for being honest with himself and us, and congratulate again for trying to change and improve himself. I also believe that if Linus can patch himself up and make the new version work, Linux kernel will also change for the better. At least its development community will work with lower stress levels, and can talk more freely.

Again, congrats Linus. Just go for it!

Edited: Ambigious words and sentences are corrected, effects of late night commenting are masked.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#313

Post by DoreenMichele »

blazespin wrote: post #269
jakeinspace wrote: post #257

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

The key, I find, is to be extremely direct and brutal in one on ones. Don't hold back, but be very supportive and positive when more than two people present. I try to explain this to be people I work with, but I don't think everyone appreciates it. Horrible people, in my opinion, are those that do the opposite.

That's actually the very definition of abuse.

I am much more comfortable with people being publicly blunt. At least there is no gaslighting involved where the victim wonders if they imagined it because everyone keeps telling them "he would never do that" or whatever.

If you are on excellent terms with someone and they trust you, etc, it can work to be more blunt in private. But most people doing that are just hiding their own bad behavior and that's it. Which makes it a form of corruption.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#314

Post by tptacek »

jakeinspace wrote: post #257

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

He's not just stubborn, persistent, and unyielding: he's performatively so. In his most notorious attacks, he's clearly playing to an audience. That could be the problem. He clearly can separate the blunt stubbornness ("we do not break userland, period") from the performative rudeness ("SHUT THE FUCK UP MAURO").

(I mean, to be clear: what the fuck do I know? I've never been in the position Linus is in.)

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#315

Post by komali2 »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #270
grzm wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a straw man meant to excuse bad behavior as the only way to provide strong direction. Pushovers are not the under discussion here: Torvalds’ behavior is.

Or perhaps an acknowledgement that people are imperfect and the world is imperfect and, if you want to accomplish things, x all-too-common defect is preferable to y all-too-common defect.

I disagree that that level of asshole behavior is all-too-common. I've never encountered anybody like Linus professionally and if I did I simply wouldn't work with/for/over them.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#316

Post by jerrysievert »

lolikoisuru wrote: post #198
jerrysievert wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why write tests? why improve ux or ui? why help with documentation? > I mean if you can't contribute code why simply mess around with things like the Code of Conduct. there are many more parts to a community, even a community of developers, than just contributing code.

>why write tests? why improve ux or ui? why help with documentation? Because these actually improve the project.

so do developers who would contribute if either there wasn't abuse, or if that abuse led to consequences.

a code of conduct tends to improve projects when having one can help attract additional people to the project, or keep people there.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#317

Post by JoshTriplett »

serf wrote: post #142

I'm probably going to be alone in saying so, but I always enjoyed Linus and his attitude. (to me) it made him appear honest and dedicated to (his own) goals, and I always felt like that was respectable. (mostly) whenever he was proven technically wrong about how to do something he would concede to the technically better solution, and if he didn't do so he gave reasons for his conclusion. in other words : his technica…

Take a look at https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/764325/09702eb949176f55/ for the most recent one of many examples of the kinds of problems that this type of behavior led to in the past.

> Popov said that all of that "kills my motivation" to work on Linux.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#318

Post by dotancohen »

Newton was an asshole too. The whole "apple fell on his head" story came about because he was so mean to people.

I won't say that most geniuses are inempathetic, but many are. Einstein wasn't, some say Gauss was. Beethoven was. Linus is. And we'll accept Linus's attitude for being an aversion to bullshit, just the quality that we need in a kernel maintainer.

I'm glad to see that Linus finally realizes that he has a problem, but truth be told I'd selfishly rather that he keep his problem because I doubt that he could steer his ship without it. I hope to be proven wrong.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#319

Post by jerrysievert »

gedy wrote: post #292
jerrysievert wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why write tests? why improve ux or ui? why help with documentation? > I mean if you can't contribute code why simply mess around with things like the Code of Conduct. there are many more parts to a community, even a community of developers, than just contributing code.

> there are many more parts to a community, even a community of developers, than just contributing code. True, but OSS and business software development is frequently short-handed in people who can actually make the software, not the planners, organizers, etc. The political debate gets polarizing because many of the "makers" think it's a lack of skill, and the other side comes across as blaming the maker's attitudes/…

that's why we need to have very clear, concise conversations about contributions and what goes along with those contributions. being able to have those conversations without being polarized on either end ultimately helps move the conversation forward.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#320

Post by DoreenMichele »

komali2 wrote: post #315
DoreenMichele wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or perhaps an acknowledgement that people are imperfect and the world is imperfect and, if you want to accomplish things, x all-too-common defect is preferable to y all-too-common defect.

I disagree that that level of asshole behavior is all-too-common. I've never encountered anybody like Linus professionally and if I did I simply wouldn't work with/for/over them.

Well, that looks to me like moving the goal posts. Saying "that level of asshole behavior" isn't common is fundamentally different from what I said.
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