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Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#131

Post by zechs »

chimeracoder wrote: post #114
d33 wrote: post #8

> I am going to take time off and get some assistance on how to understand people’s emotions and respond appropriately. Wow. Torvalds going to a therapy. I seriously couldn't be more impressed about him, because he always seemed too much of a narcissist to me. I understand how difficult it might be to decide to admit that you have a problem at this stage. And for doing that, he has my deep respect. Which kind of brin…

> would Torvalds be Torvalds if he was treated before? Is the same piece of his personality that made him a truly unpleasant person also the one that made him super motivated? This is a common trope in psychology known as the "ideology of creativity." According to the overwhelming body of research, the answer is "yes, he would still be Torvalds, and no, the same piece of his personality that makes him an unpleasant p…

Can you provide sources for this evidence? Seems interesting.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#133

Post by dboreham »

sgt wrote: post #13
SBArbeit wrote: post #9

It's about fucking time. I personally stay away from software created by people who lack empathy; technical goodness !> creating a good environment and product for actual people. I don't go to restaurants run by douchebags either, no matter how good the food might be. And Git has the UX of software created by someone with no empathy. I hope Linus heals from this, and I hope the culture of the Linux community changes…

Downvoted, although your git UX comment made me smirk.

Made me think "ok, now let's have an apology for Git"...

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#134

Post by zamalek »

Zhyl wrote: post #28
Leszek wrote: post #4

Maybe this will finally end the myth that "you can be rude and insulting as long as you're right" that people seem to attribute to Linus's outbursts

Yes. Tech people the world over need to remember the person. I don't even mean in a slightly soppy 'everyone is a real person with real feelings' way. I mean that in a practical sense you really hit productivity if you're rude. Simple exchanges or corrections become arguments because one party was acerbic or inflammatory which caused the second party to be defensive. The discussion gets derailed, the point gets lost.…

I don't treat people the same way, but I appreciate the blunt honesty. If we're having a few drinks as friends and you tell me that I'm an idiot, of course I will take that personally; however, tell me that as a developer and I'm motivated.

So far as that goes, my mind works the same as Linus. I err on the side of praise, which makes me different - although my lack of praise for some individuals probably speaks as loud as Linus' vitriol. Your ability is not a reflection of your character, i.e. "you are not your code."

I have no interest in maintaining Linux, maybe I would 20 years prior to now when choices were generally more than "drivers." That being said, Linus would make an excellent mentor for those who can separate their code and themselves.

He is an artisan, in the most classical sense. Every one of his maintainers is an apprentice. It's an incredibly unpopular perspective to have - but the epitome of professional decorum is to attack a person's work without attacking their life.

Smart people are able to discern the difference between their work (which is fallible) and themselves (which is infallible). I am a great developer, but the fact that even better ones exist is inspiring and I'd hope they would tell me what I'm doing wrong.

My assignment for the next N sprints is to clue up employees on debugging prod. I will destroy that assignment but, hell, I would prefer to work with people who cared enough to research it themselves; as I did.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#135

Post by wolfgke »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #127
wolfgke wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It just means not letting things turn heated or hateful, and treating people well. Different people have very different beliefs what is to be considered "heated", "hateful" and "treating well" or not.

Hence writing it down explicitly to establish a common understanding.

> Hence writing it down explicitly to establish a common understanding.

This writing will not lead to a common understanding, but just one layer of indirection: The strife will now be about how different people have different beliefs how the words in the writing are to be interpreted.

On the other hand: the mere existence of a CoC is a seed of strife since it is an open invitation for Social Justice Warriors.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#136

Post by rdxm »

The impact Linus has had on this business domain cannot be overstated. Things like public cloud, a real open source movement, all of it, simply could not have happened without linux.

It's not often one gets a front row seat to watch a the the dynamic of human beings and technology play out, so we should all learn from and appreciate this situation.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#137

Post by chimeracoder »

zechs wrote: post #131
chimeracoder wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> would Torvalds be Torvalds if he was treated before? Is the same piece of his personality that made him a truly unpleasant person also the one that made him super motivated? This is a common trope in psychology known as the "ideology of creativity." According to the overwhelming body of research, the answer is "yes, he would still be Torvalds, and no, the same piece of his personality that makes him an unpleasant p…

Can you provide sources for this evidence? Seems interesting.

> Can you provide sources for this evidence? Seems interesting.

I'd recommend reading the book "Worldmaking: Psychology and the Ideology of Creativity". It investigates this topic and a lot more.

https://smile.amazon.com/Worldmaking-Psychology-Ideology-Cre...

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#138

Post by DanHulton »

wolfgke wrote: post #135
JoshTriplett wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence writing it down explicitly to establish a common understanding.

> Hence writing it down explicitly to establish a common understanding. This writing will not lead to a common understanding, but just one layer of indirection: The strife will now be about how different people have different beliefs how the words in the writing are to be interpreted. On the other hand: the mere existence of a CoC is a seed of strife since it is an open invitation for Social Justice Warriors.

Oh, you're _that kind_ of person.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#139

Post by Nasrudith »

calcifer wrote: post #48
Nasrudith wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that really a myth though? Being surly and right can be workable indefinitely. As opposed to success via being polite and flattering while being wrong. Fundamentally they would be a parasite. Not a dichotomous extreme though in that it is better not to be rude unless it is called for. And rudeness can be very called for in response to evil.

> As opposed to success via being polite and flattering while being wrong. > And rudeness can be very called for in response to evil. You have constructed quite the strawman to argue against the myth, well done.

The point being that rude isn't evil in itself although it may be inappropriate. The proper response to someone wanting to hold a klan meeting in your house is "get the hell out". Rudeness is a feedback mechanism.

The point being that while less than ideal it isn't unsuccessful in itself. Extremes are useful for extrapolation - even if it will never reach that point it is helpful to have the worst in mind to be vigilant of the flaws it may start to drift into.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#140

Post by pvg »

wolfgke wrote: post #135
JoshTriplett wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence writing it down explicitly to establish a common understanding.

> Hence writing it down explicitly to establish a common understanding. This writing will not lead to a common understanding, but just one layer of indirection: The strife will now be about how different people have different beliefs how the words in the writing are to be interpreted. On the other hand: the mere existence of a CoC is a seed of strife since it is an open invitation for Social Justice Warriors.

And a couple of decades of unchecked (and finally acknowledged and admitted) poopy behaviour from the lead of one of the biggest open source projects was a seed and open invitation for what, do you figure? Harmony and universal happiness?
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