Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

lore.kernel.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 1001 posts

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#91

Post by torstenvl »

ufo wrote: post #68
Sharlin wrote: post #29

A certain sort of ruthlessness and lack of empathy, accompanied by having an extraordinarily driven personality, certainly seems to often make things happen (see also: Steve Jobs). The ages-old question is – is it worth it? Do ends justify the means?

I feel like Jobs was successful despite being abusive, not because of it.

I'd be interested to know your thoughts in more detail, because I have a different perspective and have a hard time trying to see things from your point of view.

From my perspective, people react to social condemnation of their actions. When someone does something incompetent, and they are gently corrected, that sends a certain message. When someone does something incompetent and they are lambasted, that sends the message not only that their work was of low quality but also that doing low-quality work is socially unacceptable. Since social acceptance is a much higher driving force for humans than merely being thought of as technically proficient, that would seem to be more effective.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#92

Post by anothergoogler »

Leszek wrote: post #4

Maybe this will finally end the myth that "you can be rude and insulting as long as you're right" that people seem to attribute to Linus's outbursts

It's not a myth, and Linux is an unmitigated success to this point. Torvalds' admission is a reminder that, for all but the most callous, it's not sustainable way to behave. It catches up with your conscience. It took almost 30 years for it to catch up with Torvalds'.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#93

Post by onurcel »

_wldu wrote: post #43

Way to go Linus... this is a great lesson for all of us! It's easy to get caught-up in the heat of the moment and say and do things that we regret. We've all done it. It's part of being human. The key is to realize it, apologize and do better.

when the heat of "the moment" lasts 20 years, the least we can say is it's about time.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#95

Post by yosito »

wyclif wrote: post #31

As someone familiar with LBT's mailing list rhetoric since the early days, I'm guessing a big part of what's happening here is that LBT hasn't changed the way he communicates but the rest of the world has moved on. And let's face it, the engineering and programming world has gotten a lot more politically correct—I think the main factor driving this is the increasing presence of women in technology. What I mean is tha…

I agree. While I think it's good that he's trying to take more responsibility for his abrasiveness, and would have been good even decades ago, I think society is shifting (for the better) in a direction where it's much less acceptable to be abrasive. As an abrasive person myself, who's easily frustrated, but has a thick skin when it comes to other people being abrasive with me, I don't personally care if the world gets more polite or sensitive. But I also recognize that not everyone is as comfortable with roughness as I am, and the world will be a better place if everyone learns to be respectful and sensitive to the needs of others.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#96

Post by noobermin »

blindwatchmaker wrote: post #47
Sharlin wrote: post #29

A certain sort of ruthlessness and lack of empathy, accompanied by having an extraordinarily driven personality, certainly seems to often make things happen (see also: Steve Jobs). The ages-old question is – is it worth it? Do ends justify the means?

People have been able to build successful organizations without being abrasive dickheads to their colleagues and subordinates all the time. I think it's a false dichotomy.

I think that's the point. However, such people "disappear" and end up being less known, even though they had a substantial impact of what they started. This fact then becomes part of entrepreneur folklore, reproducing more and more toxic people, etc, etc.

I'm not sure why it has to be this way or whether it has to be.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#97

Post by aerovistae »

blindwatchmaker wrote: post #47
Sharlin wrote: post #29

A certain sort of ruthlessness and lack of empathy, accompanied by having an extraordinarily driven personality, certainly seems to often make things happen (see also: Steve Jobs). The ages-old question is – is it worth it? Do ends justify the means?

People have been able to build successful organizations without being abrasive dickheads to their colleagues and subordinates all the time. I think it's a false dichotomy.

Completely agreed. But it's definitely one of the archetypes of effectiveness, oddly.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#98

Post by UncleMeat »

Nasrudith wrote: post #16

A slowgoing development for him, still I sympathize and wish him the best while wondering ironically if personal issues aside what works best. It brings to mind fundamental organizational and management. Is it better to have a "rude" organization? Calling bullshit early and often instead of polite everything is fine stacks of lies since it would be impolite to point out having O(N!) code just can't work for anything…

Criticize the behavior, not the person. Linus often included personal attacks against people who were making errors. You can get a message across without telling people that they are worthless scum.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#99

Post by yesenadam »

Zhyl wrote: post #28
Leszek wrote: post #4

Maybe this will finally end the myth that "you can be rude and insulting as long as you're right" that people seem to attribute to Linus's outbursts

Yes. Tech people the world over need to remember the person. I don't even mean in a slightly soppy 'everyone is a real person with real feelings' way. I mean that in a practical sense you really hit productivity if you're rude. Simple exchanges or corrections become arguments because one party was acerbic or inflammatory which caused the second party to be defensive. The discussion gets derailed, the point gets lost.…

..and if productivity was better from disrespecting people, then that would be the way to go?

Well...That seems to be the actual case. Our current system seems to not to respect people, or the planet (or other animals besides humans.) It seems to respect money, 'productivity', 'efficiency' and 'growth'.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#100

Post by joatmon-snoo »

_wldu wrote: post #43

Way to go Linus... this is a great lesson for all of us! It's easy to get caught-up in the heat of the moment and say and do things that we regret. We've all done it. It's part of being human. The key is to realize it, apologize and do better.

More importantly, many thanks and congratulations to the folks who finally changed his mind.
Post reply on HN