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Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#51

A slowgoing development for him, still I sympathize and wish him the best while wondering ironically if personal issues aside what works best. It brings to mind fundamental organizational and management. Is it better to have a "rude" organization? Calling bullshit early and often instead of polite everything is fine stacks of lies since it would be impolite to point out having O(N!) code just can't work for anything…

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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#52
post #31

As someone familiar with LBT's mailing list rhetoric since the early days, I'm guessing a big part of what's happening here is that LBT hasn't changed the way he communicates but the rest of the world has moved on. And let's face it, the engineering and programming world has gotten a lot more politically correct—I think the main factor driving this is the increasing presence of women in technology. What I mean is tha…

> is the increasing presence of women in technology.

you have statistics on that? if anything it has been declining during the entirety of Linux's existence https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/27/women-in-tech_n_69...

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#53
I remember criticizing Linus' sarcastic comments on here some time ago. I was surprised by the number of people that defended him saying stuff like "Linus is just Linus" or "he needs to be like that to keep Linux moving forward". I personally think his brilliance would be even more appreciated if he were a bit less sarcastic.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#54
post #29

A certain sort of ruthlessness and lack of empathy, accompanied by having an extraordinarily driven personality, certainly seems to often make things happen (see also: Steve Jobs). The ages-old question is – is it worth it? Do ends justify the means?

People can be ruthless without being abusive. Linus had effectively ultimate power over the kernel for quite some time, so he could have said things like:

"I disagree with this patch and I'm not going to merge it. It does these things wrong, and this line of reasoning makes no sense. Change these things and explain the reasoning behind this and I'll look at it again."

Most of his rants that I've read could have been summarized by that without including any personal attacks.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#55
post #31

As someone familiar with LBT's mailing list rhetoric since the early days, I'm guessing a big part of what's happening here is that LBT hasn't changed the way he communicates but the rest of the world has moved on. And let's face it, the engineering and programming world has gotten a lot more politically correct—I think the main factor driving this is the increasing presence of women in technology. What I mean is tha…

> when engineering was almost totally male-dominated, you were expected to be able to bear harsh criticism and vituperation

I don’t you intended this, but at first read your comment comes across as sexist. It implies men could take the heat while women can’t. More than being offensive, I find it untrue. Anger-driven management doesn’t scale. Tech has scales, and its heroes of yore much brave a bigger world than they were originally used to.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#56
post #9

It's about fucking time. I personally stay away from software created by people who lack empathy; technical goodness !> creating a good environment and product for actual people. I don't go to restaurants run by douchebags either, no matter how good the food might be. And Git has the UX of software created by someone with no empathy. I hope Linus heals from this, and I hope the culture of the Linux community changes…

> And Git has the UX of software created by someone with no empathy.

I would really like to understand what you expect a UX for a command line tool to look like. Maybe instead of throwing an error if you did something wrong, it would apologize to you first? Or perhaps it should preface all output with "dearest Sir/Madam, here is the information you requested:" ?

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#57
post #31

As someone familiar with LBT's mailing list rhetoric since the early days, I'm guessing a big part of what's happening here is that LBT hasn't changed the way he communicates but the rest of the world has moved on. And let's face it, the engineering and programming world has gotten a lot more politically correct—I think the main factor driving this is the increasing presence of women in technology. What I mean is tha…

Men deserve to be treated with respect too. I'm a man, and I would absolutely quit any job where someone talked to me the way LBT did in his emails. I'm sure someone reading this thinks that makes me a snowflake.

Hey, I agree totally. I wasn't suggesting that respect and empathy are only for women, they're for everybody.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#58
post #31

As someone familiar with LBT's mailing list rhetoric since the early days, I'm guessing a big part of what's happening here is that LBT hasn't changed the way he communicates but the rest of the world has moved on. And let's face it, the engineering and programming world has gotten a lot more politically correct—I think the main factor driving this is the increasing presence of women in technology. What I mean is tha…

If you look at the tech world of the 80s, 90% of it was very buttoned-up and proper, despite being male-dominated. The rudeness comes from Linux' roots in a youth-dominated hacker subculture. It just doesn't work very well when they aren't teenage hackers anymore, but have gone mainstream and are working at it in a professional capacity.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#59
post #8

> I am going to take time off and get some assistance on how to understand people’s emotions and respond appropriately. Wow. Torvalds going to a therapy. I seriously couldn't be more impressed about him, because he always seemed too much of a narcissist to me. I understand how difficult it might be to decide to admit that you have a problem at this stage. And for doing that, he has my deep respect. Which kind of brin…

>That's the second BFDL stepping down (this one claims to go just for a while), after Guido. And note that this is one is also about psychology.

It's not the first and is unlikely to be the last time Linus takes a break - it's not really stepping down.

Everyone needs some time away from something when they've spent decades working on it.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#60
post #4

Maybe this will finally end the myth that "you can be rude and insulting as long as you're right" that people seem to attribute to Linus's outbursts

> Maybe this will finally end the myth that "you can be rude and insulting as long as you're right" that people seem to attribute to Linus's outbursts

It is not the trueness or falseness of that myth that has changed, but the mainstream in the society.

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